Using Max 4 Live "effects without owning M4L?

[pepezabala]

I know that is how their demo process works, I mean it is deceptive. M4L is not part of Suite, there should be a choice of demo-ing M4L specifically, like you could with Sampler and Operator when they were introduced.

and you can. do you need to save to see it worked before saving?

I know Max for live works, that isn't the point. I will buy max for live as soon as I have the extra money. Also, not the point. There are some monome specific max for live devices that people have worked on and shared with the idea that it will make things easier for everyone that has struggled to use their monome alongside ableton for the last couple of years. I am locked out from using these. I am pretty sure the people developing these are under the impression anyone with live 8 can use them.

According to the max for live video on ableton.com, near the end after the fade out the max for live logo non-developers will be able to use anyone's max for live effect creations shared through share. This has always been the max way. There was a runtime so if you didn't develop patches, but wanted to use them, you could. You couldn't edit the patch itself, but you could use it to make music. Some people's patches allowed you to save your work, others are more experimental and generative. As an exercise in learning Max I updated and released a max patch for use with the runtime a few years ago that gives you step sequencer/lfo's that send midi of IAC busses. I made this just for use with live. Anyone that owns live can use it with the free Max/MSP runtime, wether or not they own Max.

I want a m4l runtime, too. As well as many other live users. But I don't think it will happen that soon, otherwise they would have told us about it.

[Johnisfaster]

90% of ableton customers just want to use max devices without making any. So if they made a runtime to use devices for free how exactly are they supposed to make a profit after the gazillion man hours it took to make the thing work?

Theres nothing misleading going on, they never said there would be a runtime nor did they imply you wouldn't need to purchase m4L to use patches. You're just upset cause you assumed something and now you're thinking that things SHOULD be the way you want them to be.

The definition of Fair has nothing to do with what you want.

[ejectorset]

90% of ableton customers just want to use max devices without making any. So if they made a runtime to use devices for free how exactly are they supposed to make a profit after the gazillion man hours it took to make the thing work?

Theres nothing misleading going on, they never said there would be a runtime nor did they imply you wouldn't need to purchase m4L to use patches. You're just upset cause you assumed something and now you're thinking that things SHOULD be the way you want them to be.

The definition of Fair has nothing to do with what you want.

The video for Max for live does say I (as a live 8 user) will be able to use other people's effects as long as they choose to share them via share, which was supposed to be included in live 8 but is currently not there. Watch the end. Even if they implied that with no intention of that really being the case, where the heck is share?

Exactly. One of the 3 main new features in live 8, isn't available yet.

[stringtapper]

The video for Max for live does say I (as a live 8 user) will be able to use other people's effects as long as they choose to share them via share, which was supposed to be included in live 8 but is currently not there. Watch the end. Even if they implied that with no intention of that really being the case, where the heck is share?

Exactly. One of the 3 main new features in live 8, isn't available yet.

1. As you stated yourself, the video is about Max for Live. Meaning every advantage they are citing is related to owning a Max for Live license (and a Live 8 license, obviously). Max for Live was never touted as just a new feature that came with the upgrade to Live 8. It was always understood (by those who paid attention and didn't assume things) to be an extension with it's own separate price in the same vein as the other instruments like Operator.

2. They already made an announcement that they had to scrap the Share program because they felt they took the wrong direction. Also, they never said when exactly Share was coming (nor whether it would require an additional cost).

[ejectorset]

as seen right now at http://www.ableton.com/share

Share: effortless remote collaboration

Share your Live Sets with others via the web and make beautiful music together. Live 8 introduces a simple and intelligent solution for online musical collaboration streamlining the sharing process with one-click sharing and loading, a simple system of setting access permission, speedy transfers and smart handling of external plug-ins and instruments.

I am admittedly bitter that I can't purchase max for live at the moment as it is my personal dream come true. You can't argue about share though, they are still touting that as a live 8 feature.

[stringtapper]

as seen right now at http://www.ableton.com/share

Share: effortless remote collaboration

Share your Live Sets with others via the web and make beautiful music together. Live 8 introduces a simple and intelligent solution for online musical collaboration streamlining the sharing process with one-click sharing and loading, a simple system of setting access permission, speedy transfers and smart handling of external plug-ins and instruments.

I am admittedly bitter that I can't purchase max for live at the moment as it is my personal dream come true. You can't argue about share though, they are still touting that as a live 8 feature.

You specified the Max for Live video in your other post. Anyway, sorry that they haven't gotten their videos up to date with their other announcements, namely that Share has been postponed to sometime in the future.

[LoopStationZebra]

Guys the official M4L demo is coming with 8.1.2.

Are we there yet?

lol.

[Dexes]

90% of ableton customers just want to use max devices without making any. So if they made a runtime to use devices for free how exactly are they supposed to make a profit after the gazillion man hours it took to make the thing work?

I bet 90% of ableton instrument/suite customers just want to use device presets without making any. Ableton's now giving them a free "runtime" of their instruments.
Cycling have a free runtime for max/msp.

So why no m4l runtime?

[Kodama]

I think the reduced $300 price reflects a compromise for having no run time.

But I do think M4L should be free for Suite owners. $700 is enough money to go around. I know C74 prices are much more, but Ableton is able to deal in much larger numbers. I bet this will happen eventually anyways.

[LoopStationZebra]

I'm just rather stunned that there's still no demo of M4L.

[Kodama]

You act as if I was some kid on Ableton's lawn trying to steal their overly complicated lawn mower. C74 might make the same money with Ableton charging $299 as they would with it being included in the suite. I also work for a software company and I know that figures are malleable to produce a profitable result..

[BinaryB]

You act as if I was some kid on Ableton's lawn trying to steal their overly complicated lawn mower. C74 might make the same money with Ableton charging $299 as they would with it being included in the suite. I also work for a software company and I know that figures are malleable to produce a profitable result..

The catholic church has been profiting from peoples fear of the unknown for centuries.
So i guess software developers are just doing what works.

I think we just need to come to terms with the fact that Ableton is a business not an artform.
The Ableton community is/will not based on a culture of creativity and sharing with M4L as many hoped it would be.

CLEARLY ! Ableton could have a M4L runtime. But they dont.

Its a real shame.

[stringtapper]

The Ableton community is/will not based on a culture of creativity and sharing with M4L as many hoped it would be.

How does Ableton not having a runtime mean that the community won't be "based on a culture of creativity and sharing with M4L?" People can and already do share M4L devices.

This sounds like the same kind of "I deserve free shit" argument people have been making from the beginning and will probably keep making.

[Dexes]

No offense; but IMO that is just what you're doing. Dismissing the effort that went into adopting Max and getting it "Live compliant" as something that should simply go unpaid because anyone can do it?

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but it's an argument that's often brought up against the wish of a free runtime, so I'll add my view/wishes.

I personally own Live 8 suite, boxed. That's everything Ableton offer except for the Orchestral Instrument Collection (having EIC as well as reason 4 with the orchertra sound bank - and generally not really being that interested in "real" intrument sounds - I don't have the need for it).

I bought a launchpad, which gets money to ableton. And when it was released Novation stated they would release a free step sequencer for use with the LP once max for live was out. And I do feel kind of deceived that would I now have to pay to use this free sequencer I was promised.

I'm not "Dismissing the effort" and I'm not dismissing the power max/m4l offer.
BUT, I have No interest in programming loads of devices or even using 100s of devices made by others. I have 3, maybe 4 3rd party instruments and 6 effects that I really use next to live's - haven't really touched reason since I upgraded to suite - and my hardware.

I'm happy with Live as it is (or at least the parts I'm not happy with will not be solved by m4l but also criple the max part of it - ie. no sysex, poly aftertouch support), and I want to spend my time, energy and money to make music not to code instruments or effects (thousands of free ones on the to be found on the web anyway) or create devices that "improve my workflow" (so suppsidly saving time - but in the end I'll probably spend more time learning how it works than I'd save when I've finally got it). I've tried quite a few max sequencers with the runtime, but none work Like I'd want them to: recording midi for 7-8 notes/drums into lives clip view, so I can use any live devices with the loops, then launch these clips using the LP's session grid. I've 'programed' one using only midi clips and live's internal routing, but that allways gives me slight pauses at the end of each loop also making it unusable.

Anyway as said, I was "prommised" a free stepsequencer device when I payed for my hardware and that stepsequencer is all I want. And no-one can tell me that this is worth €250. Before I go for that, I'd save up for a nemo or something like that. I know that costs a hell of alot more, but it would give me exactly what I want, as well as help get me away from the computer, which both my eye's and nerves would thank me for - m4l on the other hand would lead to the complete opposite.

[LoopStationZebra]

I think we just need to come to terms with the fact that Ableton is a business not an artform.

I think most of us came to terms with that when we got our credit card bills after our first Live purchase.

You're just a little late to the acceptance party, that's all.