What happened to the mixer envelopes of a MIDI clip in the Arrangement View?

Hey,

 

I was wondering what happened to the mixer parameter envelopes on a MIDI clip in the arrangement view? Looked for it in the manual, haven't found it.

Only thing I can edit inside a clip are the MIDI commands, not for example the clip volume itself.

Any thoughts?

 

 

16 followers

Willem 1 year ago | 0 comments

21 answers

  • DonnyDarko
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    I agree, this is a serious oversight for the functionality of arrangement view. I work in a similar fashion to Guevara, where I modulate repeating envelopes for filters and such within each clip, and then overlay longer automations in arrangement view over the top on the same parameters.

    It's not feasible to simply have very small repeating clip automations duplicated throughout arrangement view, which not only is extremely cumbersome, but also limits further automation choices.

    What I've found after some experimentation, is that clip envelopes (eg for VST filter controls) that have been modified in session view, are retained when the clip is dragged or copied over to arrangement view...

    However...

    1. They are not editable within the clip while in arrangement view, even once they're already modified. The clip must be moved back into session view to be modified, then back to arrangement view when ready. 

    2. If the loop is extended in arrangement view by manually dragging the length out longer, the envelope automation is only active for the first original "section" of the clip, and doesn't get duplicated along the length of the clip. The only workaround for this is to copy and paste (or duplicate) multiple instances of the clip, then select them all and consolidate.

    If you want to further modify the internal clip envelopes again later, you need to take the clip back to session view and repeat the whole process again.

    This also means that when using VSTs, where you used to be able to be in arrangement view with a clip open, and click on a VST parameter control to make that envelope visible for editing, you now can't do that.

    You have to drag the clip into session view first.

    I'm very interested to hear Ableton's official thoughts on this change, and whether it's a known issue, a design choice, or simply a bug that has been overlooked.

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • Flapj8ck
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    The problem here is all of the devices no longer show up in arrangement view for clip envelope modulation.  This means one of the most useful aspects of clip envelopes (that they can modulate relative to track automation) is no longer available.  Was this a necessary trade-off for the ability to record automation into clips in session view?  Is it possible to bring back mixer/device envelope modulation in arrangement view?

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • DonnyDarko
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    I've submitted all this information to tech support, so I'll keep you guys posted on the outcomes :)

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • mccar320
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    I'm with you Willem.  All I want to do is edit mixer options within the envelope, and unless I've already done that in a track I made in 8 and opened in 9, that option is not available.  Frustrating with VSTs too.  I don't want to automate the volume/pan/whatever options to the mix itself, only relative to the mix.  Is that what you're getting at?

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • doctype
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    For reference I was unaware of how to edit (while in session view) the volume of the clip, not the track volume. The old way used to have three buttons, which yes I see are slightly redundant. One of the buttons was Volume. To access that modulator right click where automation occurs and choose 'Show Modulation' it will change to Track Volume Modulation which is the 0-100 scale. This new way is better.

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • emergere
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    Has anyone figured this out yet? Is it just gone? I found this:

     

     

    Modulation

    Modulation is also a movement of a control across the Arrangement timeline or Session Clip, but relative to the defined parameter value.

    Whereas automation envelopes define the value of a control at any given point in time, modulation envelopes can only influence this defined value.

     

    In order to enable the modulation for a certain parameter, right click on the device parameter and choose Show Modulation from the context menu. Now the corresponding entry will be listed in the Device Parameter list as well.

    It is there but it is not active.

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • emergere
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    How do I access my Modulation in Clips shows that if you right click on the device perimeter you want to modulate and chose show modulation, it will show up in the arrangment view envelope selection

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • michael.j.mclaughlin20
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    The volume, pan, and pitch bend buttons were redundant. They were all accessible through the midi instrument and mixer device choosers drop down menu. In addition, the pan and volume parameters would double up if automation was recorded both in the clip and in the arrangement view, just like most of the other automate-able parameters, so it makes sense so take out all of the extra code.

    Any automation you put in the clips in session view will show up in the automation lanes in arrangement view when you record.

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • Willem
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    Yes, but the volume MIDI Control does not work on some instruments. So this would mean I'd have to take the clip, put it in session view, do the automation there and then copy it back to the arrangement?

    Thanks in advance!

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • michael.j.mclaughlin20
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    No, you should not have to do any copying of any notes or clips to do any automation. If you want to stay in arrangement view, then you can do that the whole time, but what I am saying applies equally to arrangement view.

    If you want to automate something's volume, all you have to do is click on the parameter you want to automate, and then draw in your automation.

    Every instrument, including most plugins have a global volume control before they send their audio signal out to other audio plugins or Live's in house Audio Effects.

    The actual volume control controlled by midi should be under the automation parameters from Midi Ctrl. In my copy it is labeled as cc7 - Volume. If you are not seeing this, you might want to pull up technical support and set up a ticket to Ableton.

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • Willem
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    Of course I can see this, but there's no need for a ticket. I'm just saying it made a lot more sense to me the way it was and has always been.

    I guess I'll have to live with it.

    1 year ago | 1 comment
  • michael.j.mclaughlin20
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    You can always go back to 8.4 if you need 64 bit.

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • michael.j.mclaughlin20
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    What's even better is that you actually can get automation back from arrangement view. You can either drag and drop it, or just choose the consolidate to new scene function which is new in Ableton 9.

    1 year ago | 1 comment
  • Willem
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    Thanks for the help, Michael. But I'm still not convinced.

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • Matt_Quinn
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    Could you just add a Utility to the track and automate it's volume? I came across this issue when I was looking to automate volume changes to an audio clip that I sliced to MIDI. There was no overall volume control, so my options were to either automate *each individual Simpler's* volume or to add a Utility. I added the Utility.

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • mccar320
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    I just figured it out.  When in Arrangement view and editing the envelope of a new midi clip, the drop down will only allow you to see "MIDI Ctrl" and "Only show adjusted envelopes".  When the view is switched to session view, the mixer envelope options become available.  In other words, you need to be looking at the mixer to edit mixer parameters within an envelope.  No need to put the clip into session view, just hit tab to switch your view and the mixer option will be available.  

     

    Hope this helps.

    1 year ago | 1 comment
  • doctype
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    I redacted my previous post and apologize for my ignorance. I was under the impression that Clip Volume Envelope was removed, when it was I who failed to realize how to access it. I hope the people who read my last post don't think I'm too much of a rear end. Thanks Ableton Team.

    1 year ago | 0 comments
  • jasper
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    The new is way is definitely better.

    8 months ago | 0 comments
  • mikestjean
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    I have a similar question- I see how all this has been sorted for the first context, but how about for Midi CC in the Automation lanes?

    I am working with multiple CC channels of Midi CC automation and I would like to have every automation lane showing in the arrangement view, so I can actually see how it all fits together as the song progresses.

    As I understand from this thread, and my experience, I can only see CC automation down in the Envelopes section of the Loop View portion of Live's interface...

    That's basically like having a bunch of chords playing in a track, but I can only see them as separated one-note melodies down in the Envelope view... totally out of context and basically impossible to wrap my head around musically!

    Any thoughts?

    2 months ago | 0 comments
  • A1992
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    A workaround to get the mixer back in the clips in arrangement view is to drag them to session view -- edit something in the mixer and then drag it back in arrangement view. Now the popup menu in envelops shows both clip (for audio) or midi ctrl (for midi clip) AND mixer.

    I always edit my mixer envelops of clips in the context of the song (arrangement). Really crazy that clip mixer is not default in arrangement view.

    2 months ago | 0 comments
  • Guevara
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    When I work in Live, I always start in Session View. I automate clipvolume, filters and necessary FX inside a clip. Than I copy my parts to the arrangement to work it all out. Now when I copy those clips, it doesn't include FX automation (only clipvolume). I figured I had to record to arrangement and then my automation actually shows up. Not in clipenvelopes, but in arrangement automation lines. Not only is this an annoying workaround, the thing missing is this: I used to automate filter cutoffs in clipenvelopes and then the same cutoff in arrangement. The effect being that my cutoff automation graduately became more or less (depending on my arrangement automation line). Effectively changing the automation range. This is no longer possible. I sincerely hope this is a bug, otherwise my whole workflow has been punched in the face...

    1 year ago | 0 comments

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