Scoring film

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
remute
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:14 pm

Scoring film

Post by remute » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:05 pm

Hey, I'm siginging up for a course in writing music for film/game etc and I've been told that Live isn't the way to go - I've used it, via the arrange window, as a traditional songwriting DAW, never delved into warp markers and all that which is how, apparently, you get it to work with film - as you can tell I'm a complete noob!

Is the advice correct, should I be looking elsewhere or do I just need some good tutorials to get me startd with Live?
Any help appreciated!

ubermnd
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Post by ubermnd » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:13 pm

I've used Live to create soundtracks before with no real problems. Its useful to easily stretch or shrink sections to fit the video cut but just be careful about the loss of audio quality. Over warped audio sounds a bit pants imho.

I usually throw things together in Live and then do the proper sequence in Logic or Pro Tools because they are more suited for that kind of working.

landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:21 pm

I do some short film scoring for work using Ableton. Works great. You don't need to use warping in order to work with video; that's only if you want your video to control your audio tempo (or visa versa I suppose).

Live has some nifty video features, but it's really more or less an afterthought. I can't imaging anyone who's remotely serious about film actually editing and rendering their footage out of Live. Having said that, the vid features are good enough for the casual user to have a bit of fun without having to buy an Adobe product.

I'd get a hold of the Live 7 manual and read Chapter 19; it explains pretty well how the video works.




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landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:24 pm

ubermnd wrote:Its useful to easily stretch or shrink sections to fit the video cut but just be careful about the loss of audio quality. Over warped audio sounds a bit pants imho.

+1

That's exactly right. In fact, unless you are making a video that's going to accompany your music on the dance floor, there's no real reason to warp audio to your film. If you have a section where the music slows, you create a different piece for that section, render, then compile it all in Premiere.. :lol:

rikhyray
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Post by rikhyray » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:45 pm

Get Sony Vegas. The easiest to learn for a musician since it is built by audio software developers. It`s audio is better then of pro apps like Avid or prosumer like FinalCut or Premiere. Then there are many functions that you wont find even in Avid. You can set timeline to beat and measures, there are automatic crossfades, everything works real time none other have advanced audio like Vegas.
Naturally nothing like Avid but Adrenaline is 25 000 and Digi would like you to match it with another 10 000 for your audio (ProTools)
Well, perhaps the best is that not only it is a bit cheaper then FCP, Premiere or prosumer Avids versions but you can find Vegas on Ebay or buy from some camera retailer for 100-200 for ver.8 and 20-80 ver.7.
Those full versions are included with higher end Sony cameras and lots of shops take them out and sell separately and/or user dont need it and resell them.

landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:23 pm

rikhyray wrote:Get Sony Vegas. The easiest to learn for a musician since it is built by audio software developers. It`s audio is better then of pro apps like Avid or prosumer like FinalCut or Premiere. Then there are many functions that you wont find even in Avid. You can set timeline to beat and measures, there are automatic crossfades, everything works real time none other have advanced audio like Vegas.
Naturally nothing like Avid but Adrenaline is 25 000 and Digi would like you to match it with another 10 000 for your audio (ProTools)
Well, perhaps the best is that not only it is a bit cheaper then FCP, Premiere or prosumer Avids versions but you can find Vegas on Ebay or buy from some camera retailer for 100-200 for ver.8 and 20-80 ver.7.
Those full versions are included with higher end Sony cameras and lots of shops take them out and sell separately and/or user dont need it and resell them.

Very true on the audio capabilities of Vegas, but considering that it started out life as an audio editor, one would expect that. :wink:

Vegas is an excellent stand-along package; as it also contains some nice effects capabilities as well. My preference is to use Premiere + After Effects. Vegas can't hold a candle to those two working in concert - though it's a lot more $$$, lol.



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scientist
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Post by scientist » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:02 pm

i'm scoring a feature right now, and have used live extensively for short films and ads. if you're just getting started live should be just fine. the only problem i've run into is inaccuracy with the timecode displayed by live. over significant amounts of time it does drift. so, live wouldn't be the best choice for frame accurate audio renders, but for stuff where a frame or two of slop isn't a problem (like music) you'll be just fine.

landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:22 pm

The biggest frustration for me is the lack of real scrubbing, but setting the quantize to None is usually okay.



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scientist
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Post by scientist » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:06 pm

so i just had a few back and forth pm's with amaury at ableton, and we tracked down my issues to being an error in the video file's printed timecode. so at this point, i can't point to any drift problems with live and thus can't point to any problems with using ableton for scoring purposes. (unless of course you need surround sound, or crossfades, or omf file import/export, or etc etcetc)

scientist
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Post by scientist » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:07 pm

landrvr1 wrote:The biggest frustration for me is the lack of real scrubbing, but setting the quantize to None is usually okay.
one bonus to the way live scrubs is that you can grab a clip in arrange and drag it, and the video will scrub along. this is great for e.g. timing sfx to on screen action.

remute
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Post by remute » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:32 pm

cool, thanks for all the suggestions, - would someone mind explaining their basic scoring process?
What do you do if you *do* need to slow down a sections tempo, can you lock markers to the video clip etc?

The first bit fo the course is a car advert and it needs 3 different styles/tempos - the video clip seems to lining up with the timecode and I'm going through and putting in markers at the appropriate places but I'm completely out of my depth with Ableton atm.
I'm going to be using mostly Stylus RMX, Atmosphere and the Eastwest instruments
Much appreciated! :D

vicz
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Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 3:41 pm
Location: UK

Post by vicz » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:38 pm

remute wrote:cool, thanks for all the suggestions, - would someone mind explaining their basic scoring process?
What do you do if you *do* need to slow down a sections tempo, can you lock markers to the video clip etc?

The first bit fo the course is a car advert and it needs 3 different styles/tempos - the video clip seems to lining up with the timecode and I'm going through and putting in markers at the appropriate places but I'm completely out of my depth with Ableton atm.
I'm going to be using mostly Stylus RMX, Atmosphere and the Eastwest instruments
Much appreciated! :D
Well if you want it really tight there is no better way than to do the sound first then cut the video to that. If you are on a mac then final cut is the way to go or final cut express if ££s are tight. The workflow from logic / soundtrack pro is the best. But if you have Live 7 that is def good enough. You can also use quicktime pro to 'stretch to fit' audio to video or vice versa . But as I said, rough cut the video, get the sounds right, final cut the video to the sounds will give you the best results.
Last edited by vicz on Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:44 pm

vicz wrote:
remute wrote:cool, thanks for all the suggestions, - would someone mind explaining their basic scoring process?
What do you do if you *do* need to slow down a sections tempo, can you lock markers to the video clip etc?

The first bit fo the course is a car advert and it needs 3 different styles/tempos - the video clip seems to lining up with the timecode and I'm going through and putting in markers at the appropriate places but I'm completely out of my depth with Ableton atm.
I'm going to be using mostly Stylus RMX, Atmosphere and the Eastwest instruments
Much appreciated! :D
Well if you want it really tight there is no better way than to do the sound first then cut the video to that.


8O Perfect!, But pray that the editer and/or director don't get wind of that, lol. 8O



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vicz
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Post by vicz » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:47 pm

landrvr1 wrote:
vicz wrote:
remute wrote:cool, thanks for all the suggestions, - would someone mind explaining their basic scoring process?
What do you do if you *do* need to slow down a sections tempo, can you lock markers to the video clip etc?

The first bit fo the course is a car advert and it needs 3 different styles/tempos - the video clip seems to lining up with the timecode and I'm going through and putting in markers at the appropriate places but I'm completely out of my depth with Ableton atm.
I'm going to be using mostly Stylus RMX, Atmosphere and the Eastwest instruments
Much appreciated! :D
Well if you want it really tight there is no better way than to do the sound first then cut the video to that.


8O Perfect!, But pray that the editer and/or director don't get wind of that, lol. 8O



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Wow jumped in before I finished editing even! Why should the director care so long as it finishes in time -- not to say they don't of course....just talking about rolling a few frames here and ther.

landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:05 pm

vicz wrote:
landrvr1 wrote:
vicz wrote: Well if you want it really tight there is no better way than to do the sound first then cut the video to that.


8O Perfect!, But pray that the editer and/or director don't get wind of that, lol. 8O



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Wow jumped in before I finished editing even! Why should the director care so long as it finishes in time -- not to say they don't of course....just talking about rolling a few frames here and ther.
Heh, I know, I know. There's probably some flexible directors out there willing to bend a bit to the person doing the score/music, but that's gotta be rare.



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