Ableton and the whole soft synth thing

[forge]

I actually nearly didn't post this because I have been doing a lot of criticizing of Live 7 recently, but it has to be said......


I got the Reaktor 5 update the other day and there were a few things that jumped out at me straight away

first there is the presets - almost every preset you load sounds really good and really interesting and esoteric and unique - it just sounds good out of the box

with the Live soft synths you really need to scroll through quite a few before you get to one that might be a good starting point to then change

then the second, and probably most glaring thing is the fact that as I am playing the sounds on my keyboard I can use the program change button to change through the presets - I fully understand the merits of the hotswap system in Live, but it doesnt even come vaguely close to being as useful as being able to use the MIDI program buttons - I can be actually sitting here writing this and changing sounds without looking at Live or Reaktor

then there's the interface - I've done enough talking about the interface situation with Live 7, but suffice it to say I dont really dig the Ableton interface on synths - Analog at least - I definitely think it's time there was some colour variation in Live and it's instuments - grey is not that inspiring and even if you change the skins every thing is the same colour

add that to the fact session automation which I can do to a degree with the vsti synths, then the 128 param limit then these are some enormous gaping wounds that really don't do anything to sell the Ableton instruments

thing is, the instruments are actually powerful and can be very useful, but all the things I just mentioned seriously weaken them

[/2c]

[R.J.Dubya]

hey man, I've had these thoughts many times.

That's why whenever someone mentions the benefit of the "integration" of the ableton instruments, I seriously scratch my head. I see nothing but benefits to having VSTs/AUs.

I've got the suite because I like the idea of using ableton in-house stuff, but the reality is that it just never sounds near as good as my third party stuff, plus benefits like program change and session recording of automation. And about the ableton presets. Yes, it's quite difficult to find anything remotely usable compared to something like reaktor.

But whatever, use whatever works. Congrats on picking up Reaktor. Ableton and Reaktor 5 are very good companions.

[forge]

But whatever, use whatever works. .

yeah - because I've been making Ableton tutorial videos I kind of forced myself to stick to Live for a while, and with that and pissing about with VIsta which didn't let me use Komplete properly I haven't really used any of my NI stuff in a long time, but I'm sitting here now wondering why the hell it wasn't my first priority

the whole program change is somethign I really don't get - Ableton have made a decision there to work that way and ignore the existing universal way of doing it, obviously because they think the benefits of the hotswap/browser system outweigh the disadvantages, but I can't understand anyone thinking that - not if you're focused on the end goal of actually just making music, especially in a Live setting

maybe they need to just make the browser MIDI assignable

[forge]

man - now I've switched to another set which has Analog in it and I tried changing the preset

Having to actually always sit there with hotswap engaged and not click anything else at risk of disengaging it, then use the arrow keys and hit enter every time I change presets - total hassle compared to using a program change button which is always active

it's convenient when using the mouse though

[Grappadura]

Have you checked out pro tools velvet? Thats how Electric should sound like. Check it out on youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=mJmHPShs2X8

[Pasha]

first there is the presets - almost every preset you load sounds really good and really interesting and esoteric and unique - it just sounds good out of the box

with the Live soft synths you really need to scroll through quite a few before you get to one that might be a good starting point to then change

You made me glad. I was complaining with the Abes since version 5 about the lack of usable presets. Those must be in the box IMHO. I recently bought Zebra2 and I have around 300+ presets I got for free from the web and I think I could pick up some commercial lib to complete it. Some sounds in Live presets are totally useless.

then the second, and probably most glaring thing is the fact that as I am playing the sounds on my keyboard I can use the program change button to change through the presets - I fully understand the merits of the hotswap system in Live, but it doesnt even come vaguely close to being as useful as being able to use the MIDI program buttons - I can be actually sitting here writing this and changing sounds without looking at Live or Reaktor

exceptional good point. Zebra2 will have this in the future as Urs claims.
I do agree that if the want to retain hot swap, that's ok but they should add Program Changes. I got an idea I'll post in the wish list about how to implement it.

So thanks man, you really are a thing! You changed my day because I thought I was alone on this. Hopefully the Abes will listen to a respectful member as you are!

[3dot...]

+1 forge...

really silly stuff...

I'm not a preset guy.. but it does seem that very little attention was given to preset making (especially with the new instruments)...
plus...sampler...
every sampler should come with a shitload of samples and presets....
I'm not saying give the orchestral packs for free but...welll..maybe I am...
Native instruments is a very good example....
Kontakt....Battery... both come with a HUGE 24bit library...
Kontakt has fuckn scripting....man...

and another...SYSEX...why does live filter it out...?
very strange indeed...
(considering 80% of hw synths use it....)

another thing....
live's 'automapping' is inconsistent throughout the devices..
some of the mappings just don't make any sense....

and another...
"Live supports most MIDI controller numbers up to 119,"
(WTF???!!! notice the 'most' and the 'up to 119')

I really thik that working with limitations is a good thing...
but there needs to be a good reason for it other than...
"we are a very small team"
so what... you make pricey 'pro' software...!

many more things that bother me...

seems ableton is playing in their own court...

rant'n'roll...

[oevboev]

-1

just wanted to say that we are others that don't agree with the statements of this post.
I like Live as is.

[forge]

So thanks man, you really are a thing! You changed my day because I thought I was alone on this. Hopefully the Abes will listen to a respectful member as you are!

thanks Pasha!

well if anything I'm just the 'squeaky wheel' who goes on about these thing s alot - I think that some people seem to feel Ableton will be offended by the criticism or they don't feel like they can complain, but I think that;s not the case and it's really more helpful that they know how people feel!

[forge]

another thing....
live's 'automapping' is inconsistent throughout the devices..
some of the mappings just don't make any sense....

Yes - but I would probably prefer to use the 8 macro instant mapping type system and just have more macros and be able to select the racks via MIDI - trying to automap and remember the paramters it is mapped to on a device is too much to remember, it's much simpler to map the ones YOU WANT to the macros - that;s also helpful because the names on macros are often easier to read

I really thik that working with limitations is a good thing...
but there needs to be a good reason for it other than...
"we are a very small team"
so what... you make pricey 'pro' software...!

I dont think it;s that, I think it is that Ableton often seems to try and solve many problems at once in a way that is all encompassing and clever, but often it is too clever and misses the boring every day reality of using them

[forge]

I like Live as is.

you're very lucky!

[3dot...]

another thing....
live's 'automapping' is inconsistent throughout the devices..
some of the mappings just don't make any sense....

Yes - but I would probably prefer to use the 8 macro instant mapping type system and just have more macros and be able to select the racks via MIDI - trying to automap and remember the paramters it is mapped to on a device is too much to remember, it's much simpler to map the ones YOU WANT to the macros - that;s also helpful because the names on macros are often easier to read

true that... one of my primary wishlist items are more macro banks...

but I use the automap feature... extensively...
and it would help if the 'built in' mappings made sense...
I actually switched to live because I wanted more 'hands on' ...
and less mouse...

[forge]

another thing....
live's 'automapping' is inconsistent throughout the devices..
some of the mappings just don't make any sense....

Yes - but I would probably prefer to use the 8 macro instant mapping type system and just have more macros and be able to select the racks via MIDI - trying to automap and remember the paramters it is mapped to on a device is too much to remember, it's much simpler to map the ones YOU WANT to the macros - that;s also helpful because the names on macros are often easier to read

true that... one of my primary wishlist items are more macro banks...

but I use the automap feature... extensively...
and it would help if the 'built in' mappings made sense...
I actually switched to live because I wanted more 'hands on' ...
and less mouse...

I agree - I want exactly the same

the instant mapping is ALL I use because it's far simpler and easier to remember than trying to remember how it's set up

like for example on a device like simpler, using banks is totally impractical

like I said though, if you could easily make your own automapping layout template then that might be different - no sense putting it all in a rack if you dont need to

but still, I think sometimes it is just more helpful to see the macros - very simple, big knobs, big simple names

if we could have loads of macros and the rack could be selected via MIDI then things would be very different!

[Sibanger]

The use of 'in house' instruments by Abes has me scratching my head.
There are just too many quality vst choices that blow away the Abes instruments.

I thought they were going this way for better cpu/performance etc, but after trying out the full suite, the performance was dismal.
I ended up swapping Abe instruments for other vsts and the cpu hit halved instantly and the sound quality increased. Go figure.

Why would you pay extra money for that?

To easily map controllers to the parameters you want to control should be a priority.
The simple things should be fixed before bulking up the software with (imo) needless 'features'.

[3dot...]

...I like the new instruments...they're funky...

ah forge...
if i could only get more than 8 macros I'd be very very happy...
I mean....if you could use 8 banks on 'operator'.. why not open it up for racks?!
that would really make my day/week/month/new release....