HOW TO: loop 'unwarped' or loop 'out of time'

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Angstrom
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HOW TO: loop 'unwarped' or loop 'out of time'

Post by Angstrom » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:44 pm

What is it ?
If you ever need to loop something which isn't at the same tempo as Live, or in any fixed tempo then you need to know this.
Example situations might be: ambient loops, avant garde weirdo noise, African drumming, theatrical soundscapes (battle noise, street scenes, etc) there are many occasions.
As you probably know, Live turns the loop controls off for unwarped samples, but it is actually possible to loop 'unwarped' without resorting to the annoyance of typing values in to the follow actions.


It seems that about 99.9 % of people don't realize a certain method of 'tricking' Live to do this. Well, it's not really a trick, but you need to understand what Live is really doing when it 'warps your clip - how it presents that information to you and then think backwards!

There are two things you need to know, and understand about how this works

two things to understand.


Thing 1 :
As mentioned often Beats mode will not 'warp' if it thinks the clip tempo is the same as the master tempo. You will not hear any artifacts, the audio will not judder or sound grainy, this is 100% true and proven by many tests in fact I will present one at the end of this article.
So, for god's sake don't let some newb clutching a copy of computer music, or a 'pro' with his cracked protools tell you any different.
The truth is : In Beats mode, If song tempo = clip tempo then warping is effectively off.

Thing 2
So, If the clip tempo and the song tempo match then warp is effectively 'inactive', but here's the crucial thing 2 ...
the clip tempo does not have to actually be the real clip tempo for this to work. That is crucial to this tip
In Live there is the little box for each clip which says " Seg. BPM" that is the clip tempo. Now we know that Warp is 'off' as long as those two values (clip and song tempo) are the same. So I suggest you simply type a bogus value in there .. such as the Master Song tempo. Make the two values the same and turn off warping !

why does this work ?
technical stuff
there are two techincal reasons,
1 : Beats mode is a time windowing timestretcher, meaning it takes crossfading slices of audio in the time domain. the reason it is 'beats' mode is because it is 'hinted' by time cues, where most time windowing stretchers have the windows cycling unrelated to the bar and beat , 'hinted' stretchers restart the window at an update point. You can see this in Live referenced as "transients" in the box right underneath where it says beats. So by virtue of that the artifacts are minimal when song tempo = clip tempo.

2: But in addition to that, the Abletons reduced artifacts further by putting a specific 'warp off' code in sometime during the betas of Live 6. So If clip tempo = song tempo then 'warp off'.



Anyway ... back to the real world

How to actually do it !
So,
load in something you want to loop, something with varying tempo, lets say .. a piece of African drumming.
Drop that in a clip, make sure "autowarping" is off, or select all the hit points that appear (click one , ctrl&a then hit delete)

Now, assuming your Song tempo (in the top left corner) is set at the default of 120 bpm , and there's no real need to change it because you are ignoring the BPM.

Set the clip tempo you just dropped in to 120bpm, in the little box for each clip which says " Seg. BPM"

Play the audio - you should hear that it is not 'warped' or juddery, it is just playing back. At least it should be, if it is not then you are doing something wrong.

Now to do the loop,
Select the clip waveform view, press ctrl&4 this turns off the 'snap to grid' function. You should now be able to move the loop braces freely and align your loop.

If you want a smooth sounding loop you ought to open a wave editor and do a little crossfade on your wave at the loop point (as live can't do a long crossfade on a loop)


There are a lot of people who are unfamiliar with the application who have weird thoughts about this process so to clarify:
You can loop 'unwarped',
the sound is not affected at all

Some proof of audio quality
Here's a little proof that this trick does not adversely effect sound quality
  1. drop some audio into Session, put it on two tracks
  2. in one track do the trick (beats mode on, clip tempo = song tempo)
  3. in the other track turn warp off.
  4. make sure the start points are at the start (!)
  5. drop a utility on track 2, the unwarped track
  6. press both phase buttons
  7. now play that scene and the audio will be silent.
the utility plugin is inverting one track , effectively subtracting one track from the other so 1-1 = 0, you don;t hear anything . If both tracks are exactly the same you will hear nothing. If you do hear something it is because one of the channel faders is slightly off it's default value or teh start points are not exactly on 0:0:0

here's a n image showing the two tracks, notice that the master volume level is showing 0, as the tricky 'warped' track and the unwarped track cancel each other out exactly

Image


Why does no-one seem to know this trick?

The reason it is relatively unknown is because it is a bit counter intuitive. The 'original tempo' box doesn't exactly imply 'turn off warping'. But that is effectively what it does by setting the two values to the same figure.


Limitations & Caveats
DO NOT ALTER THE MASTER TEMPO
if you alter the master tempo at any point it will all sound like shit, because of course, teh two values will no longer match.

DO NOT USE OTHER MODES
complex mode is not 'better', complex mode is simply different and in this case different means "will not work" . Please, unless you actually want artifacts, don't use complex mode. I could offer technical reasons but I am now bored

logman
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Cheers for This

Post by logman » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:25 pm

I was just thinking about this - does repitch mode alter the audio?

Another, somewhat related question: How do you trigger unwarped clips with an anacrusis? Right at this moment, I'm struggling to figure out/remember how to get a certain moment of an unwarped sample to play on the beat. Any advice?


Thanks

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:37 pm

I think you are safe with repitch mode also.

As for starting on or off the beat,
I assume because of the context that you want an unquantized start?
IE, it just begins when you press "go", If so then just open the Launch Properties of the clip and select Quantization: None

I should have included that.

If you mean a trigger which is actually quantized to start a beat or so before the bar, that's a slightly different matter than what I am talking about here because this guide is more about tempo-less looping ... so there isn't really a 'beat' to be gleaned from the application.

dj superflat
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Post by dj superflat » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:11 pm

if i recall correctly from prior threads, repitch is actually safer than beats at same tempo (because there are some rare instances in which beats causes problems if two tempos are not exactly the same (beyond the decimal places shown by live)).

Timur
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Post by Timur » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:28 pm

I rendered three different samples unwarped and in all warp modes at original tempo. One sample was a drumloop of which Live measured the correct tempo, one was a distorted guitar which Live's Autowarp measured too fast and one a slightly distorted and reverbated vocal track that Live measured too slow. By disabling and re-enabling Warp Live set their tempo to the global tempo which was set at the correct original tempo manually.

All Warpmodes except Complex rendered the very same file as the unwarped sample, they were bit-correct. That means that I took the resulting wav-files and compared them by content on a byte-to-byte basis and they were exactly the same!

So unless someone can show me a special sample that behaves different I assume that all Warpmodes except Complex play clips unaltered at original tempo. Autowarp behaves inconsistent though so it's best to either load clips unwarped at first or to disable and re-enable warp to get consistent results. Often Live's Autowarp seems to measure the wrong tempo anyway.

dj superflat
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Post by dj superflat » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:48 pm

not to be difficult, but this has gone over ad nauseum (with the abes speaking up as well). things may have changed in live 7, but the consensus was repitch is best at original tempo, beats is likely to have issues only in very rare instances (where loops go on long enough decimal places of BPM beyond those live provides may become relevant).

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:15 am

dj superflat wrote:if i recall correctly from prior threads, repitch is actually safer than beats at same tempo (because there are some rare instances in which beats causes problems if two tempos are not exactly the same (beyond the decimal places shown by live)).
I remember it as the opposite. A potential 1-2 sample offset due to jitter or something, in pitch mode...

forge
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Post by forge » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:56 am

dj superflat wrote:if i recall correctly from prior threads, repitch is actually safer than beats at same tempo (because there are some rare instances in which beats causes problems if two tempos are not exactly the same (beyond the decimal places shown by live)).
actually you are right but you got it the wrong way round!

it's repitch that can waver over a period of time - Ingo from Abe clarified that a year or two ago

I thought the same - it seems to make the most sense to use repitch as there is never any kind of warping, only altering pitch, but beats is the one that does nothing until it detects that there is a difference between clip and master tempo

the problem is the variations beyond 2nd decimal place as you pointed out, but using Angstrom's method here if you type in the value manually you are avoiding this

Thanks Angstrom - nice post!

Timur
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Post by Timur » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:35 am

I tried with a full 2.30 min System of a Down song, full of tempi changes extremly overdistorted everything. Rendered all tracks down (unwarped + all warp modes) and compared the resulting files.

Actually you don't even have to use the original tempo of the clip, when you load it unwarped and warp manually or disable/re-enable Warp of an autowarped clip it will be set to the value of the global tempo with only one warp-marker set at the beginning of the clip. The clip will then play at its original tempo regardless of your global tempo! If you want to change global tempo later but you need to set your clips' sequence tempo (of the first and only warp-marker) to the same tempo for them to keep playing at their original tempo unaltered. If you disable/re-enable warp or change global tempo you may have to reset the Start and End markers for the clip(s), Loop markers should stay the same. If a popup-box appears then answer that with "Yes", but that only appears if you did some manual changes to the warp earlier.

As long as you don't use Autowarp and your clip's tempo is the same as global tempo the output of all Warp modes except Complex remains the same bit by bit!

After all these discussions that must have been going on for years I really wonder why no one seemed to have noticed that!? :P

As long as you don't use Autowarp and have clip tempo equal global tempo all Warp modes except Complex will produce exactly the same output as unwarped clips, bit by bit!

If a clip is autowarped (and you did not disable/re-enable it) then all Warp modes may produce different results from each other and from unwarped clips! Sometimes it may not (depending on warp-markers), but I'd better stay away from Autowarp at the time being if I want unaltered content.

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:07 pm

Again, no offense, but there has been quite a bit more experimenting done by many people over a very long time...

I think in your specific case you are probably right, and the potential errors in the other three modes can be traced to decimal rounding problems if tempos are not set exactly.

By toggling the warp button you're probably eliminating that problem, although it would depend on how Ableton applies the tempo to the clip field. It still may be safer to actually type in both values.

However I would still recommend to any and everyone - to use beats mode as your default warp mode. That is confirmed by Ingo @ Ableton,as forge said.

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:10 pm

Timur wrote: when you load it unwarped and warp manually or disable/re-enable Warp of an autowarped clip it will be set to the value of the global tempo with only one warp-marker set at the beginning of the clip.
I'd have to check on this, but I think this is only true of a clip which doesn't have warp marker info saved in an .asd file yet.

Because there are definitely clips on which turning on/off warp always retains the set warp markers

Timur
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Post by Timur » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:13 pm

No offence taken! We all just try to make the best out of it. 8)

Actually setting tempo manualy can lead to problems even. I have a bug-report running in the Beta 7 where specifying a clip tempo of 128.00 manualy lead to different results than disabling/re-enabling warp which sets the tempo to 128.00 as well (with manually set global tempo to 128.00). At the moment for me the best method is to make sure that no Autowarp is used and enable warp manually whenever the global tempo is changed. My own tests conclude that warp-modes don't matter then except for Complex.

But I would be glad if anyone could provide me with a sample(s) where warp-modes do make a difference! Please PM me or post them in a separate thread so that I can do my own testing and compare the rendered outcome bit by bit, which I find even more convincing than doing Inversion tests (which obviously can be done wrong as well given the many different results found in the forum).

dj superflat
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Post by dj superflat » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:42 pm

search for the "musictech says live lacks audio quality" or somesuch thread, there's endless discussion of the issue, why tones mode starts diverging almost immediately, repitch can as well if the tempos aren't exact (ingo from ableton said it was something about live deciding on which grain to start the warp, etc.), complex always has issues, so beats is likely safest (sorry about the reversal above).

Timur
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Post by Timur » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:02 pm

I don't want this help-thread to get bloated:

Let's continue here please:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=75923

paradiddle
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Post by paradiddle » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:06 pm

anyway nice hack angstrom. 8)

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