Ableton Forum

Help! I'm trapped in a patrio-fascist propaganda bubble! (makes mime-like motions, indicating enclosure in a giant bubble)

I'm sure you're all correct; he's probably the wrong guy. Most likely, given how incompetent the US is, he's a perfectly regular bloke--he used to run a coffee shop or he was an economics professor or he worked at a bakery or something, putting frosting on wedding cakes. An innocent caught up in a nightmarish, Kafkaesque web of misunderstanding. Poor bastard.

But then that means the guy who's REALLY responsible for all the stuff he's claiming to have done is still out there. I hope someone other than the US apprehends him, so it'll be more believable next time.

glu wrote:

sqook wrote: The entire point of a court system is to provide this extra level of due process, so excuuu-use me for being a bit skeptical....

\

exactly. We can't just treat this like the typical criminal processing procedure- the way the U.S. handles "terrorist" suspects is very contra to its praised criminal justice system.

what I worry about is: if what goes on in my head goes on in the heads of as many people in the US as I think is likely.

There is a worry about the purposeful blurring of the differences in the eyes of the authorities between terrorists and criminals. There is not really much worry that when terrorists responsible for any particular thing are caught they will "get what they deserve", there is a worry that the 'authorities' are able to catch them, and there is a worry if catching them will accomplish anything. There is an abiding faith in the validity of our core principles regarding justice and human rights, but there is a real seething about so many things including the governments seeming ineptness coupled with political opportunism and the apparent endorsement of unabashed insanity by cultures foreign to us (who likely share that vice versa).

so what i worry about is that people start flying apart.

OK, I read a little more on KSM.

Apparently he's taking credit for beheading Mr. Pearl as well. Interesting. I thought they were confident that Zarqawi did that one... Or am I thinking about Nick Berg?

[EDIT: I don't mean to imply that Nick Berg beheaded Daniel Pearl, I meant to say that I might be confusing the timing of Berg's death with Pearl's]

Anyways, it's possible he's telling tales here; think about it: He's probably rightfully implicated in 9/11 planning / preparation, but by taking credit for a lot more, he can distract pursuit of the actual culprits of the other attacks. Plus, he could be like many Jihadists; a status seeker. It seems that a bomb goes off in Israel and there's three dozen different organizations taking credit.

interesting idea.
the prosecutors are confident the accused has done a certain act, or been involved in it ... and the accused then confesses to it. Now the accused simply adds a load of other confessions too, " I am santa claus" , "I invented cheese".

it undermines the original confession, makes it pretty much worthless.

I'm using that technique when I get waterboarded, good tips.

I asked a question - so far nobody has answered it.

popslut wrote: My question to you is how can you be so sure of the veracity of this report that you discount any other viewpoint?

Angstrom wrote:"I invented cheese".

You did a great job on that one amigo, thanks!

popslut wrote:I asked a question - so far nobody has answered it.

popslut wrote: My question to you is how can you be so sure of the veracity of this report that you discount any other viewpoint?

I'm not sure. I don't think anybody here is sure that this confession is true, I think some (myself included) were just attacking the foregone conclusion that it was automatically a coerced confession.

M. Bréqs wrote:I don't think anybody here is sure that this confession is true, I think some (myself included) were just attacking the foregone conclusion that it was automatically a coerced confession.

Not from me.

popslut wrote:
My position is that I don't know who this guy is or what he's done.

How about attacking the foregone conclusion that whatever the US DoD releases to the media is automatically beyond question?

popslut wrote:I asked a question - so far nobody has answered it.

popslut wrote: My question to you is how can you be so sure of the veracity of this report that you discount any other viewpoint?

My judgement is warped by the PFP bubble, that's how.

Seriously.. I'm not discounting other viewpoints. I suppose it's possible he's innocent. I just really, really doubt it. It seems they do really have something of a case against him. I guess it could all just be fabricated.. but I really doubt it. I dig your pollyanna outlook, though--must make the world seem a sunnier place.

My question: What should we do if we find the guy who's really responsible for all that crap?

M. Bréqs wrote:

popslut wrote:I asked a question - so far nobody has answered it.

popslut wrote: My question to you is how can you be so sure of the veracity of this report that you discount any other viewpoint?

I'm not sure. I don't think anybody here is sure that this confession is true, I think some (myself included) were just attacking the foregone conclusion that it was automatically a coerced confession.

That's better said than what I just posted.

did anyone post a link to the transcript yet?

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/transcript_ISN10024.pdf

M. Bréqs wrote: Anyways, it's possible he's telling tales here; think about it: He's probably rightfully implicated in 9/11 planning / preparation, but by taking credit for a lot more, he can distract pursuit of the actual culprits of the other attacks. Plus, he could be like many Jihadists; a status seeker. It seems that a bomb goes off in Israel and there's three dozen different organizations taking credit.

excellent point.

I see this as a perfect opportunity to raise his status among his comrades- martyrdom is heroic. I also can see him as THE terrorist scapegoat, since Osama is still MIA.

dont believe what you see on tv.....

propoganda

M. Bréqs wrote:OK, I read a little more on KSM. Apparently he's taking credit for beheading Mr. Pearl as well. Interesting. I thought they were confident that Zarqawi did that one... Or am I thinking about Nick Berg?
[EDIT: I don't mean to imply that Nick Berg beheaded Daniel Pearl, I meant to say that I might be confusing the timing of Berg's death with Pearl's]

Anyways, it's possible he's telling tales here; think about it: He's probably rightfully implicated in 9/11 planning / preparation, but by taking credit for a lot more, he can distract pursuit of the actual culprits of the other attacks. Plus, he could be like many Jihadists; a status seeker. It seems that a bomb goes off in Israel and there's three dozen different organizations taking credit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6455307.stm

The Beeb have neglected, purely through sheer laziness I'd imagine, to explain exactly what Pearl was doing in Pakistan in 2002 so here's 3 guesses:

1. Investigating Pakistani ISI involvement with Al-Quaeda and 9/11
2. Investigating Pakistani ISI involvement with Al-Quaeda and 9/11
3. Investigating Pakistani ISI involvement with Al-Quaeda and 9/11

Khalid, and his good chum Saeed Sheik (9/11 bankroller), were very well looked after by our 'allies' in the T.W.A.T. - the Pakistani ISI. From the 'Cooperative Research 9/11 Timeline':

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/time ... hmoodAhmed
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/time ... ikMohammed

"It's former chief, General Mahmood Ahmed, was repeatedly in contact with Sheik during 2000 and was actually in the States between Sept 4th till the 11th 2001 conducting meetings at the Pentagon and National Security Council as well as meetings with CIA Director Tenet, unspecified officials at the White House and the Pentagon, and his “most important meeting” with Marc Grossman, US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs. At the time of the attacks, ISI Director Lt. Gen. Mahmood Ahmed was at a breakfast meeting at the Capitol with the chairmen of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, Senator Bob Graham and Representative Porter Goss (Goss is a 10-year veteran of the CIA’s clandestine operations wing) The meeting is said to last at least until the second plane hits the WTC. [Washington Post, 5/18/2002] Graham and Goss later co-head the joint House-Senate investigation into the 9/11 attacks, which has made headlines for saying there was no “smoking gun” of Bush knowledge before 9/11.

On October 7th 2001 Mahmood was replaced as head of the ISI after Pakistan is threatened by US Deputy Secretary Of State Richard Armitage."

Of course there's absolutely no links between anyone in the American government or Secret Services to the Pakistani ISI, Bin Laden or even the Afghan drug trade - you'd be a potential terrorist to even suggest it

sqook wrote:Look, I'm all for prosecuting the 9/11 conspirators as much as the next guy, but I think it goes without saying that the US government's credibility when it comes to catching terrorists should be taken with a healthy grain of salt. Or two. The fact that this is coming out of guantanamo bay is equally questionable, because the US justice system essentially doesn't exist there, and the mentality of "guilty because we said so" rather than "innocent until proven guilty" can prevail.

The entire point of a court system is to provide this extra level of due process, so excuuu-use me for being a bit skeptical....

My Recklinghaus-boy friend, I do believe that was well put.