MIDI Tracks pointing to MIDI ports should have Volume slider

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:03 am

MIDI Tracks pointing to external gear, should expose a slider, like Audio tracks do in session view. (Cubase Like)

What you think?

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:59 am

Hi!

I'm not sure I understand. Would you care to explain in more detail?

Regards,
Mikael

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:05 am

Lo-Fi Massahkah wrote:Hi!

I'm not sure I understand. Would you care to explain in more detail?

Regards,
Mikael

Sure.

AFAIK, there are 2 types of MIDI tracks:

1. MIDI Tracks with VSTi or Simpler or Operator attached
2. MIDI Tracks pointing to a MIDI port.

When working on a MIDI track attached to Simpler you have a Volume Slide exposed on the Track like it is an Audio track. Otherwise, when you work on a MIDI Track pointing to an external source (expanders..), instead of a slider you have leds, that only report the MIDI note volume. To change the Volume of a clip you have to enter the clip envelope section and add a volume (MIDI CC 7) enevelope.
I would like that like in Cubase, where MIDI tracks expose a slider as all other types of tracks. It's easier than changing each clip envelope when you have to drive external gear attached to your MIDI OUT interface.

Hope it's clearer now,
Regards,

P.S.:
I do not know how to attach an Image to the post. I have tried but it seems it does not like a file coming from my disk. If you know how to I'll post a screenshot.

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:07 pm

Now I understand what you're saying. It's of no use to me personally, since I don't really rely on CC7 for anything. On the other hand it would make no difference to me if your idea was implemented, since I wouldn't touch the fader anyway...

Regards,
Mikael

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:33 pm

Lo-Fi Massahkah wrote:Now I understand what you're saying. It's of no use to me personally, since I don't really rely on CC7 for anything. On the other hand it would make no difference to me if your idea was implemented, since I wouldn't touch the fader anyway...

Regards,
Mikael

Hi Mikael,

In your experience the usage of external gear (expanders) with Ableton is not reccomended?

- Regards

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:54 pm

Hi Pasha,

No - that's not what I meant! I use both my Elektron Machinedrum and my Clavia G2 extensively. I find that the midi implementations in Live are more than sufficient for my needs. It's just that I'd rather use the physical knobs on my machines rather than CC7. I also use a hardware mixer to control my levels until they're recorded as audio tracks.

Cheers,
Mikael

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:04 pm

Lo-Fi Massahkah wrote:Hi Pasha,

No - that's not what I meant! I use both my Elektron Machinedrum and my Clavia G2 extensively. I find the midi implementations in Live are more than suffucient for my needs. It's just that I'd rather use the physical knobs on my machines rather than CC7. I also use a hardware mixer to control my levels until they're recorded as audio tracks.

Cheers,
Mikael

Hi Mikael, good to know, thank you!

pix · Post by **pix** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:57 pm

Pasha wrote: In your experience the usage of external gear (expanders) with Ableton is not reccomended?

- Regards

Honestly I've been having nothing but frustrations using Live for midi. It works ok for audio recording but sequencing external gear with anything but notes is an absolute nightmare.

Basically whenever a CC message is tweaked in your project, all midi clips that you start after it, will have that CC message imprinted on to them. You work with external gear, you know what i mean. I don't use VSTis so this makes live completely unusable for any serious midi work (other than note recording). I'd like o see if this happens with your system as well. I've been alerting Ableton for this behavior but so far have been ignored.

btw, your suggestion makes perfect sense.

i just think most folks here rely on samples and VSTis...so don't expect stuff like that to be addressed anytime soon

ILTK · Post by **ILTK** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:08 am

Yes one thing I been wanting to, if you use a multi input vst, like my Powercore Virus you need seperate tracks to feed notes to the other channels... but then you don't have any volume fader in those tracks, so you have to program/record it into the clips, same for midi tracks with external gear, and when you want to adjust levels you have to go into clips and mess with velocity or cc automation, highly annoying

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:57 am

Hi,
In my experience with xternal midi gear compared to Cubase, Live lacks functionality, but it's usable. Sure every clip on a MIDI track that drives an external xpander has its own MIDI envelope settings, including volume.
Regarding your problem, If you have several clips on the same track, say base + 3 variations, maybe linked by the follow thing you need extreme care in setting each clip volume separately. This is time consuming. If your module has a multitimbral mode each CC7 message (volume) will act for the part on that channel. Problem is that you might wanna have several clips on the same track and if you forget to set one.....sure there's no way to send a sysEx for module master volume (the Master output of the expander) and sometimes I have found out that after using Live the output of my xpanders becomes softened. I will investigate more and let you know.
Yes it seems that people with serious midi needs have to work more to obtain results especially when they have external gear.
I think the Volume slider on MIDI tracks (that point to external gear) should be considered a must in every daw appalication. In a studio setup external gear is always present, the capabilities of today's hardware in my opinion provide better sound quality than most VSTi I have tried with some exception. Furthermore Live does not work flawlessy with any VSTi around.
However Live once completed in the MIDI lacks will be far superior to Cubase. The concept of a DAW is to have all in the digital domain, so every track should become an audio track, sooner or later, but in that meantime when you're shaping your music we strongly need more MIDI goodies and usability, without changing the very good interface that Live owns.

robocop · Post by **robocop** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:39 am

Pasha wrote:Hi,
In my experience with xternal midi gear compared to Cubase, Live lacks functionality, but it's usable. Sure every clip on a MIDI track that drives an external xpander has its own MIDI envelope settings, including volume.
Regarding your problem, If you have several clips on the same track, say base + 3 variations, maybe linked by the follow thing you need extreme care in setting each clip volume separately. This is time consuming. If your module has a multitimbral mode each CC7 message (volume) will act for the part on that channel. Problem is that you might wanna have several clips on the same track and if you forget to set one.....sure there's no way to send a sysEx for module master volume (the Master output of the expander) and sometimes I have found out that after using Live the output of my xpanders becomes softened. I will investigate more and let you know.
Yes it seems that people with serious midi needs have to work more to obtain results especially when they have external gear.
I think the Volume slider on MIDI tracks (that point to external gear) should be considered a must in every daw appalication. In a studio setup external gear is always present, the capabilities of today's hardware in my opinion provide better sound quality than most VSTi I have tried with some exception. Furthermore Live does not work flawlessy with any VSTi around.
However Live once completed in the MIDI lacks will be far superior to Cubase. The concept of a DAW is to have all in the digital domain, so every track should become an audio track, sooner or later, but in that meantime when you're shaping your music we strongly need more MIDI goodies and usability, without changing the very good interface that Live owns.

So I am not alone in this world

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:51 am

robocop wrote:
So I am not alone in this world

You're not alone, but you're time warped by two and a half years.

.m

robocop · Post by **robocop** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:15 pm

Yep

Two years 1/2 to implement a midi slider, and a few midi fx goodies(midi echo/delays

),xml/midnam preset names support,... I think I should sell my Nord Modular, my 2 G2 Engines, the Blofeld and the Mopho and go back to audio loops & VSTs

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:06 pm

I'll take that G2 Engine off your hands. No problem. I'll trade it for a VST of your choice.

.m

robocop · Post by **robocop** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:55 pm

Lo-Fi Massahkah wrote:I'll take that G2 Engine off your hands. No problem. I'll trade it for a VST of your choice.

.m