F.A.Q.: WARPING

Share your favorite Ableton Live tips, tricks, and techniques.
PREAM
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Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:27 am

F.A.Q.: WARPING

Post by PREAM » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:56 pm

I posted a question in the "Art Of Warping" thread, and it seems that either no one cares to help me or that they simply did not read my request. Or, maybe the "experienced" l33t Ableton users are fed up of answering questions about the Warp function. Nevertheless, this thread is out of a little frustration, and a little compassion for others in a similar situation as myself.

I've realized that many people including the newbs (like myself), and more experienced users are having problems with getting their tracks to beatmatch 100% (or close enough). I'm suggesting that we designate this thread as the "all-in-one" solution to all WARPING related issues so that it is readily available to all, and so that newbs don't have to create countless threads with countless questions about Warping.

Mods, can you please make this thread a "sticky" of some sort?


Having said that, I'd like to let everyone know that I've read the "How To
Warp" section of the Ableton manual three times now. I've followed all instructions when warping my tracks, but many of them do not beatmatch correctly. Almost all of my music is Techno, House, Breaks, and Minimal/Glitch/Experimental/Ambient. I understand that the more "abstract" music must be warped using the "complex" mode, and I've been warping the House/Breaks/Techno tracks using the "beats" mode.

I understand how to move my "1.1.1" marker to the start of the very first downbeat and double-clicking the marker to make it a "warp marker". I understand how to use the Auto-Warp functions such as "Warp From Here (Straight)" and "Warp From Here". I understand how to designate 4/8/16 bar loops and designating more "warp markers" in other areas of a given track.

POINT-IN-CASE:
What is the quickest and simplest way to warp dance music (Techno, House, Breaks, Minimal)? How do you consistently get ALL your tracks to match 100% correctly? Please reply in a cohesive and explanatory manner.


Your time, effort, and help is much appreciated. Thanks. :)

Rave lizard uk
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im in

Post by Rave lizard uk » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:23 am

i think this is a good idea. more and more people are turning to ableton for djing and live performance.

this can only be a good thing.

ethios4
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Post by ethios4 » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:43 am

My technique for Live5...
1) Set Live's master tempo to something around the tempo of the track. Live will use this tempo as a starting point. For instance, if the track is 140bpm and you have the master tempo at 80bpm, Live will probably figure the tempo of the clip is 70bpm. If this happens just turn Warp off and then back on for the clip.

2) Determine where 1.1.1 will be. You may have to listen to the groove to determine this. If the beginning of the track makes it difficult to determine where the 1.1.1 is, you can set 1.1.1 at a logical place later in the track (where the kick comes in, for instance, or at the track's 17.1.1). Now you can look back to the beginning and find where you really want to place the 1.1.1, perhaps at -16 or -32. Set 1.1.1 here and confirm that 1.1.1 is where it should be by listening to the music

3) "Warp from Here" at 1.1.1. Live will make a good try at auto-markering the rest of the track. It is important that you have 1.1.1 actually set at the first 16th of the first beat of the measure. If you have 1.1.1 set at the track's x.2.1, Live will interpret the music differently and may try to put in a lot of warp markers where it shouldn't. Another way to say this...if you tell Live that the 3rd beat of the groove is 1.1.1, it will be looking at the music incorrectly.

If Live auto-warped the track with no additional markers, or just a few...
4a) Scroll and zoom in on the last part of the track with a clear kick, at 257.1.1 for example. Adjust the appropriate warp marker so that it lines up with the kick. If this is difficult to determine because the waveform is unclear, back up a few beats until you find a good place and warp there.

5a) Scroll and zoom in somewhere in the middle of the track. Verify that the warp-markers are lining up as they should. You want these as accurate as possible. If they are not lined up perfectly, begin setting warp markers at logical points in the track - at a breakdown, for instance, or at the beginning of a verse/chorus etc. This should force the areas between the markers to be sufficiently accurate. Placing the markers at logical points in the track allows you to use the markers as guideposts to navigate the track when mixing. Continue placing markers until you are satisfied with the accuracy of warping.

If Live auto-warped the track with lots of markers...
4b) Try using "Warp from Here (Straight)" at 1.1.1. Sometimes this works well, especially if you correct a badly placed 1.1.1. To verify, scoll to a later place in the track and see if the markers are lining up well with the beats. Look in several places in the track. If it works well, go back up to step 4a above.

If that didn't work, the track has a tempo shift(s) somewhere. So...
5b) Try adjusting all the warp markers at once. Select a warp marker that's on a good beat; it's frame should turn black. Press CTRL-A (apple-A on mac?) to select all warp markers. Now drag the warp marker so that the warp marker lines up with the beat; this should also move the other selected warp markers at the same time. If you're lucky, they will all line up now. Zoom in on lots of warp markers to verify.

If that still didn't work...
5c) You will have to warp by hand I'm not so good at this. I try to work in logical chunks by picking 16 or 32 bar phrases. I set the warp points for the beginning and end of the phrase, then work from the middle out. This requires lots of lsitening and figuring out where the beats are, and patience.

Once the track is succesfully warped...
Save the clip! This essential step can easily be overlooked when you're deep in a 100-track warping session. Often the reaction is that Live didn't save the warp markers. This is a perfectly normal and inaccurate projection of your own warped psyche onto Live. This often a good place to stand, stretch the body, maybe have a glass of water and a ____.

Its always good to the whole track to verify that the warping is correct. It may be helpful to listen with a perfectly timed 4x4 beat going to hear if it lines up right. Sometimes the beat isn't where it looks to be on the waveform. If you listen against a perfectly-timed loop and find that the beat "feels" a little later or earlier, you can select all (CTRL-A) of the markers and shift them together so they line up well.

That's it. That's all I got.
Last edited by ethios4 on Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

serotoninsteve
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Post by serotoninsteve » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:34 am

Good post!

I just want to ad that when using the metronome for warping, don´t be to accurate, the metronome sound has always to sound a bit earlier then your kick!

Why?

When you go to the ableton programm folder and drag the metronome sounds in Live you see that they have no or a very sharp attack, but most of the kicks have a noticeable attack.
If you warp very very accurate to the metronome, your warpmarker will be at the kicks peak, wich isn´t the right place compared with a drumpattern from as ex. microtonic, it will sound off.

Better you use a simple drumloop with a similar kick as your track for warping, or you replace the metronome sounds in the ableton folder by your own, just rename them to the original names.

I made this mistake, and as long as all your tracks are warped the same it works, but when you ad some microtonic your sound is off.

It´s important, because Live´s warpengine set to beats 1/16 trys to keep the transients as good as possible, therefore it´s important to warp the right place.


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Komplex
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Post by Komplex » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:38 am

3 important tips that you can't go wrong with:

1- ALWAYS have the metronome on when setting markers. Play the loop (however many bars necessary) and make sure it loops correctly and on the beat.

2- Zoom in real close (as far as u need to) so you get exactly the right spot.

3- Regularly preview a previously warp marked track from the browser while marking the new one to see if it's sounding right and beatmatching properly.

If that doesn't work, practice a bit more... or give up and quit :)

supster
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Post by supster » Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:27 am

ethios4 wrote:My technique for Live5...
1) Set Live's master tempo to something around the tempo of the track. Live will use this tempo as a starting point. For instance, if the track is 140bpm and you have the master tempo at 80bpm, Live will probably figure the tempo of the clip is 70bpm. If this happens just turn Warp off and then back on for the clip.

2) Determine where 1.1.1 will be. You may have to listen to the groove to determine this. If the beginning of the track makes it difficult to determine where the 1.1.1 is, you can set 1.1.1 at a logical place later in the track (where the kick comes in, for instance, or at the track's 17.1.1). Now you can look back to the beginning and find where you really want to place the 1.1.1, perhaps at -16 or -32. Set 1.1.1 here and confirm that 1.1.1 is where it should be by listening to the music

3) "Warp from Here" at 1.1.1. Live will make a good try at auto-markering the rest of the track. It is important that you have 1.1.1 actually set at the first 16th of the first beat of the measure. If you have 1.1.1 set at the track's x.2.1, Live will interpret the music differently and may try to put in a lot of warp markers where it shouldn't. Another way to say this...if you tell Live that the 3rd beat of the groove is 1.1.1, it will be looking at the music incorrectly.

If Live auto-warped the track with no additional markers, or just a few...
4a) Scroll and zoom in on the last part of the track with a clear kick, at 257.1.1 for example. Adjust the appropriate warp marker so that it lines up with the kick. If this is difficult to determine because the waveform is unclear, back up a few beats until you find a good place and warp there.

5a) Scroll and zoom in somewhere in the middle of the track. Verify that the warp-markers are lining up as they should. You want these as accurate as possible. If they are not lined up perfectly, begin setting warp markers at logical points in the track - at a breakdown, for instance, or at the beginning of a verse/chorus etc. This should force the areas between the markers to be sufficiently accurate. Placing the markers at logical points in the track allows you to use the markers as guideposts to navigate the track when mixing. Continue placing markers until you are satisfied with the accuracy of warping.

If Live auto-warped the track with lots of markers...
4b) Try using "Warp from Here (Straight)" at 1.1.1. Sometimes this works well, especially if you correct a badly placed 1.1.1. To verify, scoll to a later place in the track and see if the markers are lining up well with the beats. Look in several places in the track. If it works well, go back up to step 4a above.

If that didn't work, the track has a tempo shift(s) somewhere. So...
5b) Try adjusting all the warp markers at once. Select a warp marker that's on a good beat; it's frame should turn black. Press CTRL-A (apple-A on mac?) to select all warp markers. Now drag the warp marker so that the warp marker lines up with the beat; this should also move the other selected warp markers at the same time. If you're lucky, they will all line up now. Zoom in on lots of warp markers to verify.

If that still didn't work...
5c) You will have to warp by hand I'm not so good at this. I try to work in logical chunks by picking 16 or 32 bar phrases. I set the warp points for the beginning and end of the phrase, then work from the middle out. This requires lots of lsitening and figuring out where the beats are, and patience.

Once the track is succesfully warped...
Save the clip! This essential step can easily be overlooked when you're deep in a 100-track warping session. Often the reaction is that Live didn't save the warp markers. This is a perfectly normal and inaccurate projection of your own warped psyche onto Live. This often a good place to stand, stretch the body, maybe have a glass of water and a ____.

Its always good to the whole track to verify that the warping is correct. It may be helpful to listen with the metronome going to hear if it lines up right. Sometimes the beat isn't where it looks to be on the waveform. If you listen with the metronome and find that the beat "feels" a little later or earlier, you can select all (CTRL-A) of the markers and shift them together so they line up well.

That's it. That's all I got.

thats it imo, everything there and some methods that always work for me:

About finding the clear start of a 16 bar measure to "Set 1.1.1": oh absolutely this is the secret that lets you warp almost any track, including ones with no clear structure at the beginning, only pads, or other oddities

Thing important is to add, once you warp the track pretty wel starting from that point ... go back and look for the grey markers to the left that mark off multiples of 8. ie.. -8, -16, -24.

Double click the furthest one of these back. Now this sets your 1.1.1 to that point and changes all the others appropriately

Now you can set your start marker here, and "Loop to current region" Hit save. Track is done if warped correctly.

Also:

- use a nice, basic 4x4 J kick loop with a clear thump and some point to the top end. then play this under all of your warping activities. way better then either the mentrome or house loop ... no need for snares hats and other distactions. the kick is simple, consistant, always cuts, and always lets you know immediately when something is flamming.

- not too much need to put the master tempo close to original bpm ... grab grey marker 3.11 and pull it to the beginning of the (usually obvious) first kick of the third measure

- then move to the grey 5.11 marker. pull that to the (usually obvious) first kick of the 5th measure.

- now look at the original bpm box in clip view. thats really close to within less than a bpm at this point. you can set the master bpm somewhere around that now.

- so ... always playing the kick as a reference ... look at 9.11 .. pull it to mark off a perfect 8 bar section. dont warp it

- look at 17. right where it needs to be near start of the kick? if not zoom in adjust.

- now right click on it and "warp straight from here here" - right click again and say "loop to current region"

- now type 16 bars in teh loop length field down there to the left.

- look to the right side of this 16 bar loop,. its barr 33. zoom, adjust, warp straight from here.

(all the while the kick is going)

- now check bar 65. kick sounds good? 65 marker is on the spot? right click warp straight from here

- at this point you can use your 16 or 32 or whatever size loop to mark off at even points

other rules of thumb: check breaks carefully, good idea to mark at either the entrance of the break, exit or both.

- near end of the track, zoom way in as you mark off the last few sections... put them at the final drops of the track in 8 or 16 bar distances to serve as guides.

beginning and end is crucial. but if you warp this way in 16/32 bar loops as you move to the right, the whole track is definitely locked in tight so you can break them down into sections for (re)mixing with confidence, anywhere in the structure

if you get used to this method you can warp almost any dance track solid, super tight anywhere from a minute to a few minutes depending on the track.
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supster
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Post by supster » Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:39 am

EDIT: oops double post
Last edited by supster on Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:26 am

Claiming you don't have the time, or having someone else warp-marker your tracks is a lazy copout. People on this forum couldn't be more helpful in spoon-feeding how it's done without actually holding your hand. And there are books (I learned from 'Ableton Live 4 Power!' - fantastic book!), videos, tutorials, forums, etc. The Live 5 manual is especially well-written, although the 'orange dot' phenomenon could be better explained.

It's not difficult with a bit of practice (especially mindless constant-tempo grooveless repetitive monotony!), it's fast once you learn the basics and use the keyboard shortcuts, and you learn a hell of a lot about the structure of the songs while doing it, including what loops well, and one-shots you can pull out, too.

Maybe the fact that it actually takes some work will keep the riff-raff out. I for one am glad it's not just a push-button 'auto deejay' program.

john gordon
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Post by john gordon » Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:53 am

well,it is call AUTO warping now isnt it.

jbodango
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Sometimes Consider working with the backbeat first!

Post by jbodango » Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:50 pm

Okay, I was showing my friend the other night the whole warping process...
he was trying to focus on the downbeat (beat 1) of every measure and then i vocalized a simple comment, that seemed to make a world of difference for him... I'm not sure if anyone has discussed this, but I will go ahead and post.

Realize that most popular music styles contain a backbeat (i.e. beats 2 & 4 of the measure). Sometimes it can be a lot easier to focus your initial warping efforts on the backbeat as opposed to the down beat. .


I know to some this is common sense, but I feel strongly that if one keep this in mind he/she may yield quicker (and better warping results).

Another (slightly more advanced) concept is to study percussive waveforms and understand the power of slightly pushing and pulling the backbeat.

more to come,

-jason

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:05 pm

getting the tempo
ethios4 wrote:My technique for Live5...
1) Set Live's master tempo to something around the tempo of the track. Live will use this tempo as a starting point. For instance, if the track is 140bpm and you have the master tempo at 80bpm, Live will probably figure the tempo of the clip is 70bpm. If this happens just turn Warp off and then back on for the clip.
The way I set the tempo:
on the track you want to warp ... turn warp off to hear it in original tempo, now use tap tempo to aproximate. Now when you 'warp from here' the markers should line up pretty well. Some people displike tap tempo - but it's quick for me.

aligning the beats
supster wrote: - use a nice, basic 4x4 J kick loop with a clear thump and some point to the top end. then play this under all of your warping activities. way better then either the mentrome or house loop ... no need for snares hats and other distactions.
.
I also use an additional drum to mark th ebeginning of the bar, just incase you are warping something tricky and dont realise you have gone a 1/4 beat out. A cymbal helps align you.

other stuff

dont use too many green markers, as much as possible just grab the marker without double clicking. lots of green markers makes life difficult. unless you are warping 'we are the black gold of the sun' like I just did ... you shouldn't need them. the average electronic tune only needs a couple to account for turntable / vinyl deviations.

supster
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Re: Sometimes Consider working with the backbeat first!

Post by supster » Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:58 pm

jbodango wrote: Realize that most popular music styles contain a backbeat (i.e. beats 2 & 4 of the measure). Sometimes it can be a lot easier to focus your initial warping efforts on the backbeat as opposed to the down beat. .

I know to some this is common sense, but I feel strongly that if one keep this in mind he/she may yield quicker (and better warping results).
yes, absolutely. on a given track its not always clear where your downbeat is, for any number of reasons - like the waveform is thick with a lot of information in that spot - or the track for some other reason doesnt have a clear waveform there

so as i'm warping, im looking up to a couple of bars to the left or right of where i'm trying to drag or set my marker

often if you look to either side, there *will* be a clear indication of where your markers are supposed to be. often this is on a backbeat, or somewhere near it.

for instance on some tracks the snare previous or after where you think the backbeat is will stick out visually and be clear.

so you use that as a guide to setting your markers correctly .. and if you're running a clear kick underneath it all as you are working the way we suggest, your ears will confirm it.

one of the finer points of warping but one that really goes a long way if you can get your head around it.
.
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incinereight
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Post by incinereight » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:07 am

not to sound like a total dunce but

ethios4

your post just changed my life .... suddenly I'm mixing Ministry with Paul Oakenfold


WWOOOWOWOWOWWW

ok ... bye

-michael

ethios4
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Post by ethios4 » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:44 am

incinereight wrote: suddenly I'm mixing Ministry with Paul Oakenfold
:lol: yes!!! the magic of Live!! you can use it to sync up movie dialogue, insect chirps, Balinese gamelan, and the sound of your roomate snoring on the couch, all as a seque into a mashup of James Brown and Metallica!! yes!!!

GK
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Post by GK » Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Hello everyone!

moved to Live from Traktor like two or three weeks ago,
and i was thrilled to find out how PRECISE , bugless and professional this piece of code is...Nothing to do with NI's product for sure.

But,my initial joy,faded out...
Not cause of some Live's problem , but after finding out,hours of warping and correcting and listening to beats,kicks,loops,and other repetitive-@!#@$#@ stuff,was in vain...

My thought was to try to sync ALL the tracks added to my Liveset , to One particular track!..[which was not warpedited,and chosen randomly]I think this is smart and stupid at the same time...
Stupid cause LIVE cannot really recognize the beats and cut the loops as it should , and smart cause you avoid the annoying-not usefull-not accurate metronome procedure who just gives [me] trainwrecks..

To get to the point,i've read lots of posts here,saw a couple of videos,read the [short] article on the manual about warping but still can't get it right!
I know there is a way to perfectly beatmatch , i just can't figure this out!

Metronome is not the solution-for sure.!It is just not accurate,i mean,i can't MATCH the sound of KICK with a blip in my ear!..I know i am not the only one here..And if i manage to get kick and metronome matching 100%,then when trying to mix 2 tracks ,they doesnt match..they sound to match with the metronome,but they dont perfectly match with each other! :? 8O :cry:

Maybe i can get an already warped-correctly loop,and just correct every other warp marks on the other tracks while playin the two of them at the same time?

Should i have WARP turned OFF during this process?

finally i want to give some respect to all the users spending time answering to us-newbabes , it's really kind of you , and show patience , i mean , all of you found yourselves in our place sometime...

ps:sorry for my crappy english hope i make sense
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