Sorry Abletons but I just plain give up with this, I bought v1 of Live and mostly I love the idea. However, I have waited a year now to use it in a way that hasn't been addressed. I understand that recording into clips is not a priority for many people around here so have written my own Reaktor ensemble to allow me to do so BUT it will not sync even now in v2. I have tried the demo and on a friends full version but it's no go. It works in Logic, it works in Cubase in fact it works in virtually any other host that supports the sending of tempo information to VST's but it won't in Live.
Tap tempo appears to work fine from a floorcontroller which would be great if the thing I want to change tempo with could respond to it! I understand that most people using this software in a Live situation may be sat in front of the screen and be able to change things with a mouse, I can not. So I'm afraid I can spend no more time with your software or risk spending money on the upgrade, which I almost did anyway as I assumed this would have been resolved, and wait for the day this function is implemented in a way that Reaktor understands. I'm using Logic instead for my live work and in my case it's working fine even though it feels like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. I can trigger quamtised clips using Touch Tracks and EXS24, I have tap tempo, I can feed it live input, I can effect it and I can use the Reaktor ensembles I have created to get around the live looping deal AND IT SYNCS TO THE HOST TEMPO!!
Forgive me if I sound frustrated, I have spent a lot of time and effort trying to squeeze what I want with the way Live seems to be headed but I really can't wait any longer for something which quite honestly, in my opinion, should have been working in the very first update of Live.
Not being able to remotely call up sets I can understand, and could live with, given that the soiftware seems to be based on more of a DJ mentality along with a number of other things so my gripe is over one tiny little function really. The rest of my desires being implemented would be icing on the cake but it seems the icing is being implemented before basic functionality and testing that it actually works (Reakto is a fairly mainstream app I would have thought).
So, I wish you all the best and will take a look again at some time in the future as I really have to get this working now and can wait no longer. You have done a wonderful job with your software and ideas in the main and I wish I had got more out of my investment but that is more myself to blame than you to be fair, I deviated from my usual policy of making sure something does what I want before buying it but got caught out. A year to make something work seems a bit long to wait though does it not?
Okay, all the best Abletons. You deserve to and will do well with your great software and we may meet again some sunny day. Meanwhile I have to move to something that works.
DT
I give up...
Hi,
It's a pity to hear that but of course we cannot make everybody happy.
But I don't understand what do you mean by "recording into clips"? Could you explain me what the ensemble you wrote is doing?
Concerning the VST stuff I cannot say so much to that because it's not in my development range but I'm a little bit confused because I got messages from users who said "Tempo sync works" and some said "it doesn't work".
So the only thing I could offer is that you send me your reaktor ensemble so that we cound find out what the problem is.
Please also let me know on which hardware (Mac or PC) you work.
regards,
Alex
It's a pity to hear that but of course we cannot make everybody happy.
But I don't understand what do you mean by "recording into clips"? Could you explain me what the ensemble you wrote is doing?
Concerning the VST stuff I cannot say so much to that because it's not in my development range but I'm a little bit confused because I got messages from users who said "Tempo sync works" and some said "it doesn't work".
So the only thing I could offer is that you send me your reaktor ensemble so that we cound find out what the problem is.
Please also let me know on which hardware (Mac or PC) you work.
regards,
Alex
record into clips
I think what he means is when he is syncing Reaktor to Live by a VST Instrument (Reaktor audio output)..He cannot get audio into Live and record into a clip..Record the audio from like a syncd Reaktor sequenced instrument directly in Live..
-
Guest
Thank you for your reply Alex. I will try and explain further but I have in fact just plain given up. To explain what I mean by recording into clips I will try to explain and point you to a piece of hardware that does the job how I would ideally like...
Imagine your software is being used by a guitarist in a live situation. He has no access to your software other than via floorcontrollers/etc during the gig. What he would LIKE to do is feed a live input into your software and at the press of a switch record a loop into a clip including any VST effects. Fine, that is no problem although it would be nice to be able to setup before hand different clip lengths that would automatically start looping after a predetermined number of beats.
Now, this is all well and dandy but the next step is to have that loop still playing while recording another (ideally he could even "overdub record" some more live input on top of that clip while it is still playing) but to do that another clip has to be recorded onto another track otherwise the first loop will stop playing. Now the cracks start to appear with the idea but it is still workable, the problems being that (remember he has no access to the computer) once clips are recorded they can not be deleted and that those clips will each need their own track if they are to layer and will accumulate VERY quickly requiring a massive number of MIDI assignments and tap dancing not to mention routing. Again, this is even workable if not ideal.
The solution? Well, having tried getting this to work in a reasonable manner for a year it appears as simple as follows as a basis. 1) If each track had a parameter that enabled any clips on that track to be Exclusive or Non-Exclusive. Ie: Exclusive is as it is now, when one clip on a track starts playing or recording any others on that track stop WHEREAS "Non-Exclusive" mode would allow any clips on that track that are already playing to keep on doing so even while recording any new ones. This in fact takes him 90 or so percent of where he wants to be APART from the fact he still can't delete any clips that have just been recorded live but that is still workable, just use a new track for each "song" in the set. It's kind of putting live into a vertical scene mode as opposed to the current horizontal one. On the face of it you'd think what I am saying can be achieved by using scenes but it gets messy as loads of tracks have to be created and switched between that are setup for live input as opposed to just one. The addition of being able to "overdub record" a live signal into any clip would be VERY usefual as well so that individual clips can be built up and layered, a feedback slider so that the volume of the preceding recorded layer could be lowered by a set amount each pass would be ideal also so clips don't just end up as a wall of noise. Also bear in mind amongst all this said guitarist, whatever, may wish to trigger pre-defined loops as usual within Live to add to the jam as he feels (no computer nearby remember).
Okay, despite the above being not where you may want to take the software (even though I assure you there are MANY people who would latch on to it if it did and have been working this way for far longer than Live's existance using hardware) it is still workable. How? Well, one could build a Reaktor ensemble so that live audio could be fed into it and manipulated as described. I have done this and it in fact works fine but obviously being hardwired would be much better. But almost a year after I got these working I am STILL waiting (in fact I'm not, I've given up) for a version of Live that will actually send sync information that Reaktor will understand, it works in every other host that sends vstTimeInfo I have tried flawlessly.
So it boils down to one of two things for the whole thing to work as I need. The sync information part of the deal being resolved or the above "record", "overdub record", "feedback amount" and maybe Exclusive/Non-Exclusive idea on tracks being implemented. I never really expected the latter to be implemented which is why I went about trying to solve the problem myself and I feel I have given it my best shot. I was willing to work with the compromises as this software is obviously aimed at a different audience but I didn't think that it was going to take so long to resolve. You can't imagine how pleased I was with Tap Tempo being implemented and how well it worked but my heart just sank when my ensembled resolutely stayed at their default tempo in Live v2 when I got to try it.
It seems that the perception of what is "live" is different depending where you are coming from and what they are trying to achieve. Some people want to creat their "clips" on the fly at a gig as opposed to triggering a library of already assembled ones.
Well, I hope all that makes sense. Just a few functions and Live would, in my opinion, TRULY become a "live sequencing instrument". Maybe I read too much into the name a year back
If you are interested in what is currently considered the father of live looping hardware take a look here... http://www.gibson.com/products/strings/ ... index.html
All the best, if you are still awake, I really did try with this. I have never known a piece of software so intimately and had to ditch it. Oh, by the way it is in fact possible to use Reaktor in Live so that it recieves vstTimeInfo correctly by loading it up within TC Spark FX but this is just asking for trouble in a live situation and to put it bluntly... WHY SHOULD I??
Keep looping Abletons.
DT
Imagine your software is being used by a guitarist in a live situation. He has no access to your software other than via floorcontrollers/etc during the gig. What he would LIKE to do is feed a live input into your software and at the press of a switch record a loop into a clip including any VST effects. Fine, that is no problem although it would be nice to be able to setup before hand different clip lengths that would automatically start looping after a predetermined number of beats.
Now, this is all well and dandy but the next step is to have that loop still playing while recording another (ideally he could even "overdub record" some more live input on top of that clip while it is still playing) but to do that another clip has to be recorded onto another track otherwise the first loop will stop playing. Now the cracks start to appear with the idea but it is still workable, the problems being that (remember he has no access to the computer) once clips are recorded they can not be deleted and that those clips will each need their own track if they are to layer and will accumulate VERY quickly requiring a massive number of MIDI assignments and tap dancing not to mention routing. Again, this is even workable if not ideal.
The solution? Well, having tried getting this to work in a reasonable manner for a year it appears as simple as follows as a basis. 1) If each track had a parameter that enabled any clips on that track to be Exclusive or Non-Exclusive. Ie: Exclusive is as it is now, when one clip on a track starts playing or recording any others on that track stop WHEREAS "Non-Exclusive" mode would allow any clips on that track that are already playing to keep on doing so even while recording any new ones. This in fact takes him 90 or so percent of where he wants to be APART from the fact he still can't delete any clips that have just been recorded live but that is still workable, just use a new track for each "song" in the set. It's kind of putting live into a vertical scene mode as opposed to the current horizontal one. On the face of it you'd think what I am saying can be achieved by using scenes but it gets messy as loads of tracks have to be created and switched between that are setup for live input as opposed to just one. The addition of being able to "overdub record" a live signal into any clip would be VERY usefual as well so that individual clips can be built up and layered, a feedback slider so that the volume of the preceding recorded layer could be lowered by a set amount each pass would be ideal also so clips don't just end up as a wall of noise. Also bear in mind amongst all this said guitarist, whatever, may wish to trigger pre-defined loops as usual within Live to add to the jam as he feels (no computer nearby remember).
Okay, despite the above being not where you may want to take the software (even though I assure you there are MANY people who would latch on to it if it did and have been working this way for far longer than Live's existance using hardware) it is still workable. How? Well, one could build a Reaktor ensemble so that live audio could be fed into it and manipulated as described. I have done this and it in fact works fine but obviously being hardwired would be much better. But almost a year after I got these working I am STILL waiting (in fact I'm not, I've given up) for a version of Live that will actually send sync information that Reaktor will understand, it works in every other host that sends vstTimeInfo I have tried flawlessly.
So it boils down to one of two things for the whole thing to work as I need. The sync information part of the deal being resolved or the above "record", "overdub record", "feedback amount" and maybe Exclusive/Non-Exclusive idea on tracks being implemented. I never really expected the latter to be implemented which is why I went about trying to solve the problem myself and I feel I have given it my best shot. I was willing to work with the compromises as this software is obviously aimed at a different audience but I didn't think that it was going to take so long to resolve. You can't imagine how pleased I was with Tap Tempo being implemented and how well it worked but my heart just sank when my ensembled resolutely stayed at their default tempo in Live v2 when I got to try it.
It seems that the perception of what is "live" is different depending where you are coming from and what they are trying to achieve. Some people want to creat their "clips" on the fly at a gig as opposed to triggering a library of already assembled ones.
Well, I hope all that makes sense. Just a few functions and Live would, in my opinion, TRULY become a "live sequencing instrument". Maybe I read too much into the name a year back
If you are interested in what is currently considered the father of live looping hardware take a look here... http://www.gibson.com/products/strings/ ... index.html
All the best, if you are still awake, I really did try with this. I have never known a piece of software so intimately and had to ditch it. Oh, by the way it is in fact possible to use Reaktor in Live so that it recieves vstTimeInfo correctly by loading it up within TC Spark FX but this is just asking for trouble in a live situation and to put it bluntly... WHY SHOULD I??
Keep looping Abletons.
DT
-
Guest
My apologies Alex, I didn't answer your questions...
>"Concerning the VST stuff I cannot say so much to that because it's not >in my development range but I'm a little bit confused because I got >messages from users who said "Tempo sync works" and some said "it >doesn't work"."
Well, with all due respect to you guys great work there but I am in the "it doesn't work" camp so ultimately it doesn't work. It's definitely not a setup thing and it's not the ensemble itself which has been tested in every host know to man and works fine. It looks like a "random" thing which in my book counts as a bug. It either works or it doesn't. It doesn't, sorry.
>"So the only thing I could offer is that you send me your reaktor >ensemble so that we cound find out what the problem is."
Any of the systems in the "it doesn't work" camp will show that any of the ensembles that come with Reaktor that use tempo information for syncing won't work either. It's not an isolated case, it either works or it doesn't.
>"Please also let me know on which hardware (Mac or PC) you work. "
I am using a PC based around a Mixtreme 16 I/O card hooked direct to a digital desk in a rack-mounted running at 64 samples.
DT
>"Concerning the VST stuff I cannot say so much to that because it's not >in my development range but I'm a little bit confused because I got >messages from users who said "Tempo sync works" and some said "it >doesn't work"."
Well, with all due respect to you guys great work there but I am in the "it doesn't work" camp so ultimately it doesn't work. It's definitely not a setup thing and it's not the ensemble itself which has been tested in every host know to man and works fine. It looks like a "random" thing which in my book counts as a bug. It either works or it doesn't. It doesn't, sorry.
>"So the only thing I could offer is that you send me your reaktor >ensemble so that we cound find out what the problem is."
Any of the systems in the "it doesn't work" camp will show that any of the ensembles that come with Reaktor that use tempo information for syncing won't work either. It's not an isolated case, it either works or it doesn't.
>"Please also let me know on which hardware (Mac or PC) you work. "
I am using a PC based around a Mixtreme 16 I/O card hooked direct to a digital desk in a rack-mounted running at 64 samples.
DT
-
Guest
hey DT, I am in the same boat.
I use Live much like a hardware looper much of the time, and it is getting close to what it needs to do there.
I think the solutions are pretty simple, and I think Ableton probably has them next on the to-do list.
Basically I would need to be able to press ONE midi/ keypress event to overdub, and have it on the same track. I need the option to undo, and also to delete recordings, all completely remotely. What would be nice is a ram-buffer, so you could always hit a key/trigger and get the last X bars you played, even if record eas not eneabled. (Cubase has a similar thing with MIDI)
By the way DT, you can see how I control Live at www.songcarver.com (glove interface) whilst playing guitar. I am always promoting the idea that Live should be able to be played blindfolded, making more tasks midiable, and supplying subtle, informative feedback with midi or sonic effects.
Let's summarize LIVE versus hardware looper:
1) Ability to slow down and speed up audio after recording
2)Ability to open and save material
3) Dynamic, powerful effects built in
4) Ability to structure musical ideas into A/B/C structure etc
5) Ability to sync and sync effects to Midiclock etc.
Benefits of hardware (I have limited experience)
1) Quick setup (Live requires arming, setting up recording path etc)
2) Built to easily overdub
3) Does not require visual attention mostly
Now, Live has a GREAT GUI. Congrats to the designer/s. However, I am convinced that Live needs to be able to work well without looking at it.
You know what I liked about 'Notator' on the old Atari 1024's?
It had, for the most part, everything on a single screen. And, when recording, the whole screen inverted in colour. that was great! You could tell AT A GLANCE that you were recording.I wish it was the same for Live because I want big fat confirmation when i am recording. How about a MIDI note sent when recording commences and when it finishes? Leave the rest up to me! maybe I will assign that note to a synth in my cans, or maybe route it back to Live to control a subtle effect in the main mix , etc.
Or that MIDI note could simply turn on a light on my hardware controller, or it could control some haptic feedback...
Now, To DT's, and my problem.
Now, the picture clears.
There are a few ways to do this.
1) Allows multiple 'outputs' on one track. 'non-exclusive' as DT put it.
2) Allow overdubbing clips
3) Allow auxillery sends on individual tracks to be inputs for other tracks (have a live input track, and alternate for overdubs between two other tracks, which provides a type of 'undo')
4) There is another possibility, flexible, and would supplement the above.
I know that many users are after some type of automation for LIVE. Also, some users, like me are after some sort of feedback from the program, for example to tell me without looking at the screen that I cannot record becuase the selected slot is full.
Well, if Live sent some basic MIDI notes when certain events ocurred, then this would allow an auxillery midi program to give live 'automation' and would also allow Live to feedback information to itself.
(as well it would be great to have a much larger indication of recording, like a change of skin)
Some examples of MIDI feedback:
Say I am playing bass guitar. I have a single midi trigger pedal on the floor, and i want to record 5 new clips. I press my midi pedal once, recording starts, i press again, playback begins. now i press the same midi pedal, but the slot is already full, so Live sends back a midi note to tell me. I have a little midi application which takes that note, transposes it, and sends it back. Now that transposed note, i have midi mapped to 'move scene down'. NOW I can record.
and onwards. Pretty nifty eh?
Simply start with Live's map modes, add a MIDI FEEDBACK MAP mode for things like 'slot full', 'record clip started/ stopped(quantized)'. 'scene triggered', 'top-most scene', 'clip deleted'
Some more creative ideas:
-When all slots are full, MIDI feedback is re-routing back in to change (slightly) the effect on master channel
-Midi control of lighting desks just from LIVE performance
-Record 4 bars of music into 4 separate 1 bar sections throught automation
- Send force feedback to Joysticks, with a little programming
-Send midi notes to synth, for audible feedback when performing
-Send info to hardware controllers/ custom LIVE controllers
etc
-SC
I use Live much like a hardware looper much of the time, and it is getting close to what it needs to do there.
I think the solutions are pretty simple, and I think Ableton probably has them next on the to-do list.
Basically I would need to be able to press ONE midi/ keypress event to overdub, and have it on the same track. I need the option to undo, and also to delete recordings, all completely remotely. What would be nice is a ram-buffer, so you could always hit a key/trigger and get the last X bars you played, even if record eas not eneabled. (Cubase has a similar thing with MIDI)
By the way DT, you can see how I control Live at www.songcarver.com (glove interface) whilst playing guitar. I am always promoting the idea that Live should be able to be played blindfolded, making more tasks midiable, and supplying subtle, informative feedback with midi or sonic effects.
Let's summarize LIVE versus hardware looper:
1) Ability to slow down and speed up audio after recording
2)Ability to open and save material
3) Dynamic, powerful effects built in
4) Ability to structure musical ideas into A/B/C structure etc
5) Ability to sync and sync effects to Midiclock etc.
Benefits of hardware (I have limited experience)
1) Quick setup (Live requires arming, setting up recording path etc)
2) Built to easily overdub
3) Does not require visual attention mostly
Now, Live has a GREAT GUI. Congrats to the designer/s. However, I am convinced that Live needs to be able to work well without looking at it.
You know what I liked about 'Notator' on the old Atari 1024's?
It had, for the most part, everything on a single screen. And, when recording, the whole screen inverted in colour. that was great! You could tell AT A GLANCE that you were recording.I wish it was the same for Live because I want big fat confirmation when i am recording. How about a MIDI note sent when recording commences and when it finishes? Leave the rest up to me! maybe I will assign that note to a synth in my cans, or maybe route it back to Live to control a subtle effect in the main mix , etc.
Or that MIDI note could simply turn on a light on my hardware controller, or it could control some haptic feedback...
Now, To DT's, and my problem.
Now, the picture clears.
There are a few ways to do this.
1) Allows multiple 'outputs' on one track. 'non-exclusive' as DT put it.
2) Allow overdubbing clips
3) Allow auxillery sends on individual tracks to be inputs for other tracks (have a live input track, and alternate for overdubs between two other tracks, which provides a type of 'undo')
4) There is another possibility, flexible, and would supplement the above.
I know that many users are after some type of automation for LIVE. Also, some users, like me are after some sort of feedback from the program, for example to tell me without looking at the screen that I cannot record becuase the selected slot is full.
Well, if Live sent some basic MIDI notes when certain events ocurred, then this would allow an auxillery midi program to give live 'automation' and would also allow Live to feedback information to itself.
(as well it would be great to have a much larger indication of recording, like a change of skin)
Some examples of MIDI feedback:
Say I am playing bass guitar. I have a single midi trigger pedal on the floor, and i want to record 5 new clips. I press my midi pedal once, recording starts, i press again, playback begins. now i press the same midi pedal, but the slot is already full, so Live sends back a midi note to tell me. I have a little midi application which takes that note, transposes it, and sends it back. Now that transposed note, i have midi mapped to 'move scene down'. NOW I can record.
and onwards. Pretty nifty eh?
Simply start with Live's map modes, add a MIDI FEEDBACK MAP mode for things like 'slot full', 'record clip started/ stopped(quantized)'. 'scene triggered', 'top-most scene', 'clip deleted'
Some more creative ideas:
-When all slots are full, MIDI feedback is re-routing back in to change (slightly) the effect on master channel
-Midi control of lighting desks just from LIVE performance
-Record 4 bars of music into 4 separate 1 bar sections throught automation
- Send force feedback to Joysticks, with a little programming
-Send midi notes to synth, for audible feedback when performing
-Send info to hardware controllers/ custom LIVE controllers
etc
-SC
-
Guest
Hi SC.
It appears we are on the same wavelength and I am with what you say/suggest pretty much. For simplicity of getting SOMETHING along these lines going and then building on them I stick with the base ideas I outlined.
BUT the truth is I never really expected any of these to be implemented when I purchased the software. I only wanted one thing, tempo information that Reaktor can understand. I have written ensembles that do pretty much what I need here and I have waited andd waited and waited and waited. I really don't think that it's been too much to ask personally, it's basic functionality and should have been resolved WAY before v1.5 was released even in my opinion.
Things that we have suggested like "overdub", Exclusive - Non Exclusivity of clips, and deletion would indeed be great but I need to be lateral here. I have waited a YEAR for Reaktor to sync as a plug in with Live, the only extra that is of any use to me with the v2 upgrade is Tap Tempo and while it's not an expensive upgrade I personally can't keep dreaming about getting these functions implemented or even running my ensembles on this record.
Don't get me wrong, I love Live. It is SO SO SO close to my ideal it is untrue. Those few things listed and I could personally use this in a live situation, I have a list like yourself of ideals but if it takes a year to fix something that a guy can knock up and give away to try and help things I feel justified in being pissed off given the effort I have put into trying to go this route. I refer to Andreas' fix dll for PC which enables sync info to pass through but sadly it is no use with my ensembles as they are stereo, not to mention on principle it shouldn't be necessary.
I am using Logic now. I can trigger quantised loops using Touch Tracks. I can use Tap Tempo. I can send a signal where I want without having to go half way around the world. I CAN USE REAKTOR AS A PLUG IN AND IT WILL TEMPO SYNC!!!! It's not ideal but the compromises are less at this point.
Really. All I wanted was vstTimeInfo and TempoAT(), VST functions that every other host seems to deal with okay, to do their job. The rest would be icing that I anticipated Live maybe growing into. But we are at v2.01 and nada, nothing. I get told for some "Tempo sync works" and others "it doesn't work" and that's it. Forgive me if I sound frustrated but I am. I feel I have beta tested this software enough as it is and if it takes a year to get a function working what hope have I of getting it at all? And when??
We probably realise that we are trying to bend the banana with Live as it seems aimed predominantly at a DJ type setup. Certain questions that get asked seem to fly over peoples heads as their version of what is "live" and ours I feel is quite different. Power to them for getting the software they want and functionality asked for.
Abletons. This is great software but having paid good money for this I feel let down. Even IF this problem is resolved, we are now on v2 and I have to pay for it!!?? I wasn't asking for the moon here, it even appears that you claim it "kind of" works given your knowledge that it works for some people and not for others so it is obvious you are "trying" to make it work.
Forgive me, I am not in the habit of paying circa £200 for a piece of software and becoming a beta-tester as part of the deal. That stopped a few years back when Steinberg pulled the same trick. I need to use this in a professional environment and need professional support and as nice as you guys are and the great work you have done this doesn't qualify.
Oh, happy new year
DT
DT
It appears we are on the same wavelength and I am with what you say/suggest pretty much. For simplicity of getting SOMETHING along these lines going and then building on them I stick with the base ideas I outlined.
BUT the truth is I never really expected any of these to be implemented when I purchased the software. I only wanted one thing, tempo information that Reaktor can understand. I have written ensembles that do pretty much what I need here and I have waited andd waited and waited and waited. I really don't think that it's been too much to ask personally, it's basic functionality and should have been resolved WAY before v1.5 was released even in my opinion.
Things that we have suggested like "overdub", Exclusive - Non Exclusivity of clips, and deletion would indeed be great but I need to be lateral here. I have waited a YEAR for Reaktor to sync as a plug in with Live, the only extra that is of any use to me with the v2 upgrade is Tap Tempo and while it's not an expensive upgrade I personally can't keep dreaming about getting these functions implemented or even running my ensembles on this record.
Don't get me wrong, I love Live. It is SO SO SO close to my ideal it is untrue. Those few things listed and I could personally use this in a live situation, I have a list like yourself of ideals but if it takes a year to fix something that a guy can knock up and give away to try and help things I feel justified in being pissed off given the effort I have put into trying to go this route. I refer to Andreas' fix dll for PC which enables sync info to pass through but sadly it is no use with my ensembles as they are stereo, not to mention on principle it shouldn't be necessary.
I am using Logic now. I can trigger quantised loops using Touch Tracks. I can use Tap Tempo. I can send a signal where I want without having to go half way around the world. I CAN USE REAKTOR AS A PLUG IN AND IT WILL TEMPO SYNC!!!! It's not ideal but the compromises are less at this point.
Really. All I wanted was vstTimeInfo and TempoAT(), VST functions that every other host seems to deal with okay, to do their job. The rest would be icing that I anticipated Live maybe growing into. But we are at v2.01 and nada, nothing. I get told for some "Tempo sync works" and others "it doesn't work" and that's it. Forgive me if I sound frustrated but I am. I feel I have beta tested this software enough as it is and if it takes a year to get a function working what hope have I of getting it at all? And when??
We probably realise that we are trying to bend the banana with Live as it seems aimed predominantly at a DJ type setup. Certain questions that get asked seem to fly over peoples heads as their version of what is "live" and ours I feel is quite different. Power to them for getting the software they want and functionality asked for.
Abletons. This is great software but having paid good money for this I feel let down. Even IF this problem is resolved, we are now on v2 and I have to pay for it!!?? I wasn't asking for the moon here, it even appears that you claim it "kind of" works given your knowledge that it works for some people and not for others so it is obvious you are "trying" to make it work.
Forgive me, I am not in the habit of paying circa £200 for a piece of software and becoming a beta-tester as part of the deal. That stopped a few years back when Steinberg pulled the same trick. I need to use this in a professional environment and need professional support and as nice as you guys are and the great work you have done this doesn't qualify.
Oh, happy new year
DT
DT
-
Guest
happy new year all!
hey peoples,DT, how does this sound?
'Routing View'
check out my mock-up:
www.homepage.mac/songcarver.com/routing.jpg
Bascially this requires every track to have a 'ghost channel', allowing two channels of audio per track; monitoring AND clip playback on a single visible track. This only comes into play when track monitoring is ON.
Track 4 is as normal. However, monitoring will now NOT mute clip playback.
Track 5 will record a clip WITH effects(wet). Input Monitoring is wet. Clip playback is dry.
Track 6 will record a mix of both clip playback and monitoring input. Clip playback is attenuated by 'Decay' before being recorded. Triggering the slot which already contains the clip will REPLACE that clip with a mix of the old and new. Clips are recorded dry.
Track 7 will Overdub POST effects. Clips are recorded wet, allowing you, the player, to easily change effects and overdub on top.
What do you think?
-SongCarver
hey peoples,DT, how does this sound?
'Routing View'
check out my mock-up:
www.homepage.mac/songcarver.com/routing.jpg
Bascially this requires every track to have a 'ghost channel', allowing two channels of audio per track; monitoring AND clip playback on a single visible track. This only comes into play when track monitoring is ON.
Track 4 is as normal. However, monitoring will now NOT mute clip playback.
Track 5 will record a clip WITH effects(wet). Input Monitoring is wet. Clip playback is dry.
Track 6 will record a mix of both clip playback and monitoring input. Clip playback is attenuated by 'Decay' before being recorded. Triggering the slot which already contains the clip will REPLACE that clip with a mix of the old and new. Clips are recorded dry.
Track 7 will Overdub POST effects. Clips are recorded wet, allowing you, the player, to easily change effects and overdub on top.
What do you think?
-SongCarver
-
Guest
Hi SC.
It looks good yeah, if you can get the Abletons to incorporate this it would be very nice.
With all due respect though I can't spend any more time dreaming about this stuff and what could or couldn't be. I wanted one simple function that is supposed to already exist fixed and hasn't been. I am even expected to pay for it as part of an upgrade to v2 if it does get fixed which simply ain't gonna happen.
Good luck though I think we are on a completely different wavelength to be honest with this stuff. It was suggested a while back that it would be nice to be able to have send outputs as track inputs and one of the team asked what use it would be?? So I really don't hold much hope to be honest getting some of this across, it seems people are more interested in triggering pre-assembled loops as opposed to creating them on the fly.
I honestly think, given that Live has always claimed to be a VST host, that having it work correctly with Reaktor wasn't too much to ask. It's not like Reaktor is some unknown app/VST on either PC or Mac and given that Live is pretty much based around quantising of the data it works with I do feel justified in expecting plugins that offer this functionality to work properly (and not have to pay for the priviledge when/if it does get fixed).
You have more faith than I SC. I paid to be a customer, not a beta tester.
DT
It looks good yeah, if you can get the Abletons to incorporate this it would be very nice.
With all due respect though I can't spend any more time dreaming about this stuff and what could or couldn't be. I wanted one simple function that is supposed to already exist fixed and hasn't been. I am even expected to pay for it as part of an upgrade to v2 if it does get fixed which simply ain't gonna happen.
Good luck though I think we are on a completely different wavelength to be honest with this stuff. It was suggested a while back that it would be nice to be able to have send outputs as track inputs and one of the team asked what use it would be?? So I really don't hold much hope to be honest getting some of this across, it seems people are more interested in triggering pre-assembled loops as opposed to creating them on the fly.
I honestly think, given that Live has always claimed to be a VST host, that having it work correctly with Reaktor wasn't too much to ask. It's not like Reaktor is some unknown app/VST on either PC or Mac and given that Live is pretty much based around quantising of the data it works with I do feel justified in expecting plugins that offer this functionality to work properly (and not have to pay for the priviledge when/if it does get fixed).
You have more faith than I SC. I paid to be a customer, not a beta tester.
DT
-
SongCarver
- Posts: 432
- Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2001 3:29 pm
Hey there DT,
I understand what you mean, I do face issues like you, and I have been a customer for a LONG time. Anybody who reads these threads knows I usually add my $'s worth, and I DO put a lot of trial, thought and experience into my feedback.
I have provided as much feedback as I can, but I am still coming up against major bugs/crashes in the 2.01 release for OS X. I have found that recording in Live needs priority, is needs to stretch away from the comforts of a 'studio' concept of 'arm and record'. Concepts of what monitoring is for and how it is used needs a rethink.
I don't know anything about Reaktor, so I can't speak for it.
I Will be going 'offline' for some time, I have just crammed in as many 'dreams' as I can before I go. If anyone else uses Live in the way we do (much like a hyper hardware looper+ other features) then please chime in here. <------------
-SongCarver
I understand what you mean, I do face issues like you, and I have been a customer for a LONG time. Anybody who reads these threads knows I usually add my $'s worth, and I DO put a lot of trial, thought and experience into my feedback.
I have provided as much feedback as I can, but I am still coming up against major bugs/crashes in the 2.01 release for OS X. I have found that recording in Live needs priority, is needs to stretch away from the comforts of a 'studio' concept of 'arm and record'. Concepts of what monitoring is for and how it is used needs a rethink.
I don't know anything about Reaktor, so I can't speak for it.
I Will be going 'offline' for some time, I have just crammed in as many 'dreams' as I can before I go. If anyone else uses Live in the way we do (much like a hyper hardware looper+ other features) then please chime in here. <------------
-SongCarver
-
metrognome32
Alex,
Andreas on this forumn created a VST plugin that you can use with reaktor to achieve tempo sync. This works perfectly if you are cool with rewiring your reaktor sequencers to convert an audio signal into control rate. I thought Reaktor used 3 types of SYNC methods: SongPosition, 1/96 sync, and "Global tempo info". Has ableton tested any of these? Would be a big win for integrating VST'i sequencers in live. Than you don't have to add midi support cause anyone with reaktor can load and play midi files through reaktor as an effect insert in live.
Props to Andreas for the workaround discussed on a diff post.
-gNome
Andreas on this forumn created a VST plugin that you can use with reaktor to achieve tempo sync. This works perfectly if you are cool with rewiring your reaktor sequencers to convert an audio signal into control rate. I thought Reaktor used 3 types of SYNC methods: SongPosition, 1/96 sync, and "Global tempo info". Has ableton tested any of these? Would be a big win for integrating VST'i sequencers in live. Than you don't have to add midi support cause anyone with reaktor can load and play midi files through reaktor as an effect insert in live.
Props to Andreas for the workaround discussed on a diff post.
-gNome
-
Guest
Big props indeed to Andreas for his workaround. There are a few things though...
1) It cannot be used with a stereo ensemble that is dealing with stereo audio, which the ensembles I have been building and trying for a year to get working do.
2) This "fix" does nothing for Mac users.
and more to the point...
3) The mechanics for this to work properly are already there in Live. It in fact has worked with certain plugs since v1! Plug ins that requested information about the host were misled into thinking that timeinfo wasn't being passed when it was and plugs that just went ahead and assumed it was there worked anyway. THAT has now been fixed, in a payable upgrade in my case, HOWEVER it STILL will not work properly with Reaktor here in v2. The mechanics are already there, they have been for a year or so, it's just they haven't been implemented or tested correctly as is clear from Alex's reply to my plight above.
Full props as you say to Andreas but he shouldn't even have to be doing this. Either that or Ableton should pay the guy so they can show him how to get the bloody thing working properly!!
If Ableton had never implemented this part of the VST spec then fine, we would know where we stood. But it has "almost" worked for the last YEAR so I assumed the intention was that it was part of what they wanted to deliver as a host.
NONE of the supplied ensembles that use tempo sync supplied with Reaktor work in either the demo or full version of v2, they resolutely stay at the ext sync clock setting. They, and my ensembles, work fine in Logic, Cubase and even the free version of Muzys. There is no indication as to IF and/or WHEN this will be resolved, the best response I have had is that it is unsure why it isn't working as it works for some people and not others.
The code is already there, it hasn't been tested properly. It is as simple as that. This should not be part of an upgrade that I have to pay for, having not bought Live just before v2, it should have been fixed way back. It is basic functionality of any VST host you care to mention. It is part of the whole point of VST in the first place. I'm not asking for the moon here.
Songcarver: If you have another VST host there, I am using Logic now for this, and Reaktor I can send you my ensembles if you care to take a look. They tempo-sync, overdub, reverse and undo. If you have Logic I can also send an environment as I have it setup for live use.
DT
1) It cannot be used with a stereo ensemble that is dealing with stereo audio, which the ensembles I have been building and trying for a year to get working do.
2) This "fix" does nothing for Mac users.
and more to the point...
3) The mechanics for this to work properly are already there in Live. It in fact has worked with certain plugs since v1! Plug ins that requested information about the host were misled into thinking that timeinfo wasn't being passed when it was and plugs that just went ahead and assumed it was there worked anyway. THAT has now been fixed, in a payable upgrade in my case, HOWEVER it STILL will not work properly with Reaktor here in v2. The mechanics are already there, they have been for a year or so, it's just they haven't been implemented or tested correctly as is clear from Alex's reply to my plight above.
Full props as you say to Andreas but he shouldn't even have to be doing this. Either that or Ableton should pay the guy so they can show him how to get the bloody thing working properly!!
If Ableton had never implemented this part of the VST spec then fine, we would know where we stood. But it has "almost" worked for the last YEAR so I assumed the intention was that it was part of what they wanted to deliver as a host.
NONE of the supplied ensembles that use tempo sync supplied with Reaktor work in either the demo or full version of v2, they resolutely stay at the ext sync clock setting. They, and my ensembles, work fine in Logic, Cubase and even the free version of Muzys. There is no indication as to IF and/or WHEN this will be resolved, the best response I have had is that it is unsure why it isn't working as it works for some people and not others.
The code is already there, it hasn't been tested properly. It is as simple as that. This should not be part of an upgrade that I have to pay for, having not bought Live just before v2, it should have been fixed way back. It is basic functionality of any VST host you care to mention. It is part of the whole point of VST in the first place. I'm not asking for the moon here.
Songcarver: If you have another VST host there, I am using Logic now for this, and Reaktor I can send you my ensembles if you care to take a look. They tempo-sync, overdub, reverse and undo. If you have Logic I can also send an environment as I have it setup for live use.
DT
-
Guest