Live 5: Groove Quantize and Groove Templates?

louZ · Post by **louZ** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:53 am

Please tell me these features have been included too??!

Jammo · Post by **Jammo** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:55 am

Sadly not I think or they would have said so. I think this will be added in one of the interim updates.

A much needed feature no doubt about that but for now I think we can all manage

elemental · Post by **elemental** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:08 pm

yeah

never mind - PDC was more important to me.

I'll still be going back to Cubase for tight groove locked beats...

louZ · Post by **louZ** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:45 pm

elemental wrote:

I'll still be going back to Cubase for tight groove locked beats...

That's exactly what I don't want to do anymore.

Maybe the Abes could shed some light on this?

louZ · Post by **louZ** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:09 pm

I guess the silence says it all

futureproof · Post by **futureproof** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:16 pm

louz....seems that way, doesnt it? oh well.

I hate to be one of those people that complains even when a fantastic update is announced because it didnt have what I want but I just cant hide my disappointment. I really cant wait to get my hands on the new features, but seriously, we need to figure out some kinda work around for this. I have FL5 already and as much as I dislike using two apps to create one song I'll probably just end up sequencing some stuff in there.

any ideas louz?

louZ · Post by **louZ** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:45 pm

Yeah, without wanting to seem ungratefull, this is a bummer.

The best solution I have come up with is Project 5 version 2. It can host VST's, record and quantize midi while being slaved to Live. So you can sequence midi (drum parts) in P5, while retaining full functionality in Live.

This works a lot better than with Cubase SX 2, which can't really be slaved to another sequencer. And Live in slave mode is pretty useless if you ask me.

Since you already own Fruity Loops, it would be worth checking out if it can do the same thing as P5. I don't suppose it can do 'on-the-fly' quantizing in vst mode, but just the rewire slave functionality of P5 would be enough.

Let's hope the Abes are bringing us groove quantize in the near future!

jasefos · Post by **jasefos** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:06 pm

louZ wrote:Yeah, without wanting to seem ungratefull, this is a bummer.

The best solution I have come up with is Project 5 version 2. It can host VST's, record and quantize midi while being slaved to Live. So you can sequence midi (drum parts) in P5, while retaining full functionality in Live.

This works a lot better than with Cubase SX 2, which can't really be slaved to another sequencer. And Live in slave mode is pretty useless if you ask me.

Since you already own Fruity Loops, it would be worth checking out if it can do the same thing as P5. I don't suppose it can do 'on-the-fly' quantizing in vst mode, but just the rewire slave functionality of P5 would be enough.

Let's hope the Abes are bringing us groove quantize in the near feature!

As much as I depend on Cubase SX3 for my ventures into screwed-up tight sounding funk I think there's the opportunity for it to be done better than ALL DAW's in Live ... maybe Live 6 ?

I'll be posting a detailed "most ideal" implementation in the Feature Request forum shortly (just putting the finishing touches on it).

For starters I'm thinking things like:
- tagging individual notes (or whole clips) with Groove Targets
- Any number of arbitary Groove Targets can be specified in a project and named intuitively (e.g. "All percussion", "HighHats", "Drums and Bassline")
- Groove Grids (System Global and Session Local) organised in Pallets
- Assignment of Groove Grids to Groove Targets.
- Groove Grid explorer/manager/editor.
- Groove Grids tweakable in realtime during playback with realtime feedback of edits.
- Tool for creating Groove Grid Nodes automatically using mathematical functions
- Extract Groove Grid from MIDI/Audio clips function in Groove Grid manager
- Realtime Groove Grid morphing for Humanisation possibilities
- Individual Mastertracks for each Groove Target (switch Groove Grids for a given Groove Target over the course of a tune).
- Groove Grids to effect External MIDI clock output (very special!!! Remember the Feel Factory hardware clock box from the 80s?)

Full details coming soon in the Feature Request forum !!
Feedback once posted is welcome - let me finish off the idea first.

Personally I'd rather see the Abe's not rush this feature into version 5.

Wouldn't we rather a full-on implementation of absolutely THE most ideal method to implement Groove Quantising? Something not found elsewhere?

The fact Ableton Live 4 already allows trickery such as Swing quantise of Clip Envelope automation (can't do that elsewhere - I've always wanted to easily Groove MIDI volume for instance!) with realtime feedback when adjusting Swing amount in realtime already puts it in good stead ...

I'd like to see Ableton eventually equipped with a Groove quantise engine which will satisfy an MPC3000LE user, make my Electribe EMX1 seem inflexible and make the static destructive groove quantising found in most DAW's seem dated.

louZ · Post by **louZ** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:16 pm

sounds cool!

interested to read the details in feature request.

jasefos · Post by **jasefos** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:20 pm

louZ wrote:sounds cool!

interested to read the details in feature request.

Just done some edits above .... check again ; )

Now /.../ back to the implementation details!
(I need to do some major rewrites of it now I've come up with the concept of Groove Targets ... this would be everything I've always dreamed of!!)

louZ · Post by **louZ** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:54 pm

jasefos wrote:
For starters I'm thinking things like:
- tagging individual notes (or whole clips) with Groove Targets
- Any number of arbitary Groove Targets can be specified in a project and named intuitively (e.g. "All percussion", "HighHats", "Drums and Bassline")
- Groove Grids (System Global and Session Local) organised in Pallets
- Assignment of Groove Grids to Groove Targets.
- Groove Grid explorer/manager/editor.
- Groove Grids tweakable in realtime during playback with realtime feedback of edits.
- Tool for creating Groove Grid Nodes automatically using mathematical functions
- Extract Groove Grid from MIDI/Audio clips function in Groove Grid manager
- Realtime Groove Grid morphing for Humanisation possibilities
- Individual Mastertracks for each Groove Target (switch Groove Grids for a given Groove Target over the course of a tune).
- Groove Grids to effect External MIDI clock output (very special!!! Remember the Feel Factory hardware clock box from the 80s?)

Kickass!
Any note on any track could then be quantized to one grid, while others (even in the same clip) are quantized to a different grid, or not at all. Messing with the grid lines would be like messing with warp markers, instead that multiple clips can be affected at once.

I guess you want the Groove Grid Manager to be an extra option in the clip view?

I'm also curious how you want to implement the tagging of notes with groove agents for different grids? I'll wait for the detailed plan.

I hope the Abes are taking notes

jasefos · Post by **jasefos** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:49 pm

louZ wrote:
jasefos wrote:
For starters I'm thinking things like:
- tagging individual notes (or whole clips) with Groove Targets
- Any number of arbitary Groove Targets can be specified in a project and named intuitively (e.g. "All percussion", "HighHats", "Drums and Bassline")
- Groove Grids (System Global and Session Local) organised in Pallets
- Assignment of Groove Grids to Groove Targets.
- Groove Grid explorer/manager/editor.
- Groove Grids tweakable in realtime during playback with realtime feedback of edits.
- Tool for creating Groove Grid Nodes automatically using mathematical functions
- Extract Groove Grid from MIDI/Audio clips function in Groove Grid manager
- Realtime Groove Grid morphing for Humanisation possibilities
- Individual Mastertracks for each Groove Target (switch Groove Grids for a given Groove Target over the course of a tune).
- Groove Grids to effect External MIDI clock output (very special!!! Remember the Feel Factory hardware clock box from the 80s?)
Kickass!
Any note on any track could then be quantized to one grid, while others (even in the same clip) are quantized to a different grid, or not at all. Messing with the grid lines would be like messing with warp markers, instead that multiple clips can be affected at once.

I guess you want the Groove Grid Manager to be an extra option in the clip view?

I'm also curious how you want to implement the tagging of notes with groove agents for different grids? I'll wait for the detailed plan.

I hope the Abes are taking notes

louZ wrote: Kickass!
Any note on any track could then be quantized to one grid, while others (even in the same clip) are quantized to a different grid, or not at all.

Yip.

Think of the times you've wanted to do this however in conventional DAW's you've had to manage the grids manually.

The usual way in normal DAWs:

Select some notes ... Select a Quantise Grid (and memorise which one it way) ..... Quantise selected notes ... oh that didn't work ... return to the part that generates your Groove Quantise ... return to the MIDI parts ... edit the notes (nodes) of the Groove Quantise ... Recapture the MIDI part as Groove Quantise .... create the selection again (hoping you get it right) ... apply the Quantise again ... repeat over and over, etc, etc, etc

The problem is
- most DAWs don't allow you to create specific selection groups purposely for applying different quantise grids (only clumbsily possible through creating parts/groups and then creating aliased copies of these groups)
- no DAWs (except for Live's simple Swing quantise) allow realtime manipulation of Grooves and hearing their effects in context,.

louZ wrote: Messing with the grid lines would be like messing with warp markers, instead that multiple clips can be affected at once.

I prefer to think of the Groove Grids (residing in Palettes) as series of editable Nodes (instead of Warp Markers).

I would like the Groove Grid Manager/Edit manager to be an 3part panel which drops down off a small icon (so its unobtrusive) along the top row of the screen. Non modal and sticky ....

3 panels side by side ....

Groove Grid Palette Explorer / Groove Grid List (for currently selected Palette) / Groove Grid Editor (nodes + special functions)

In 3rd panel (Groove Grid Editor)

Edit Groove Grid Nodes (drag and drop editor)
parameters to:
- edit length
- edit alignment (retrigger from event OR retrigger at signature changes)

function buttons to
- apply mathematical (circular trig) functions to the nodes
- apply a standard Live swing (%) to the nodes
- export Groove Grid being edited as a Standard MIDI file

drag and drop clips or browser items onto node editor to:
- Create Nodes (and set length) from Warp markers of dropped Audio clip
- Create Nodes from MIDI Notes of dropped MIDI clip
- Create Notes from MIDI Channel entry dropped from Browser

louZ wrote: I guess you want the Groove Grid Manager to be an extra option in the clip view?

In Clip view all one should need to have is a paint bucket tool and a Palette of Groove Targets on the RHS for of the Piano roll editor for MIDI notes (for MIDI Clips) or on the RHS of the Warp Marker displays (for Audio clips).

louZ wrote: I'm also curious how you want to implement the tagging of notes with groove agents for different grids? I'll wait for the detailed plan.

Well we'll have Groove Target Palettes .... a named list with (colour/pattern coding) with your arbitary Target names .... You could use a paint bucket style tool to pick up Targets from the Palettes local to this project and apply them to either individual notes or any Selected Notes.

Groove Grids (organiseed in either Global System or Local Session Palettes) to be assigned to Groove Targets as part of the Groove Grid Manager/Editor pull down non-modal menu as described aboive.

louZ wrote: I hope the Abes are taking notes

Maybe.
: )

Yes "da groove and dirty funk" will hopefully be in the CORE of Live 6 (7?) !!!

I don't expect them to "rush" all this stuff in Live 5.

Not just a producer tool either (I'm a strictky a producer - not a DJ).

DJ's users take note:
Think of how this may help mix tracks with tricky quantises in place already and normalise them to each other? Think of those times you've had a 2 tracks with really wacky quantises you've wanted to mix together but even though they're definitely beat matched correctly the trickiness of the Groove Quantises make the mix feel out of time and awkward. This tool has the capacity to sort this out allowing you to normalise the Grooves to a straight grid and then impose a groove a little more interesting than simple Swing ....

louZ · Post by **louZ** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:07 pm

Could you explain what these 'nodes' would look like?
Also the 'length and allignment' of what exactly would you edit? The length of the notes (via the node length) and if the quantize would start straight away or for example on start of the next bar?

I have some suggestions for the layout.
Keeping with Ableton tradition, I would suggest the Groove Grid Editor to be the third option in the bottom end of the screen (besides clip view and instruments/fx view).
The Palette Explorer and Grid List can be integrated in the renewed Browser. Pushing a button on the Grid Editor would then open the Palette and Grid Lists in the Browser window (just like with Live devices and FX).

IMO Ableton shouldn't wait too long in implementing this, for Cakewalk or any other competitor might steal the idea.

louZ · Post by **louZ** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:54 pm

I asked Ableton if groove quantize and groove templates would be in Live 5 or in one of the 5.xx updates.

They replied: "can't answer this at the moment, the 5.0 release will not feature groove templates".

Seems like they're working on something?

Martyn · Post by **Martyn** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:53 pm

I'm liking these ideas a lot! I'm a big fan of apps that let you play with groove. I'm all for not rushing something good too, it'd be great to see the Abes come up with something just as new and revolutionary in the groove ballpark, as they seem to have done with the new Live5 features. The whole warping thing has always been just crying out for it imho.