Reliability of LIVE as a stage tool

teejay · Post by **teejay** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:19 am

Ok people... here is one of the most asked questions about using LIVE as a standalone tool for performance... THE STABILITY.

As a DJ/Producer i wet myself when i think about the possibilities LIVE offers as a Dj'ing tool, but then again it freaks me out to think that i'm prone to having it crash on stage. Now this is a scary thought.

I wonder how Ableton approach this. In fact i did have a crash during one of my practise sessions, and it scared the shit outta me that this could happen on stage.

I'm looking to use LIVE as my primary DJ app, and ditch VINYL/CDs for good. At this point i'm pretty worried about how much i cany rely on LIVE especially for those long extended 5 hr sets

Livewire · Post by **Livewire** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:46 am

i suggest getting an external hardrive. Live streams all the audio directly from the disk, so the faster your hardrive, the better.

Live is very stable, the only reason it might crash is if the computer its running on isnt powerful enough, so its not Live's fault. it does hog up the cpu a bit , but thats wat you get when you have everything realtime.

wat kinda computer do you have?

teejay · Post by **teejay** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:48 am

I have a Hypersonic Aviator laptop.

P4 3gig
1GB Ram

Dont think processing power is my problem, or is it?

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:02 am

There are a lot of things that can influence reliability:

Computer:
model and O/S
amount of RAM (more is better, of course)
HD speed (7200 rpm / 8 or 16MB cache is better)
stability of drivers for audio and MIDI interfaces
System settings such as processor idling/networking/virus scanning etc. (turn them off) Many, many posts on the forum about these issues - do a search for them.

Live related:
stability of VSTs and VSTi's
size of Live set (total size of clips / total CPU draw of plugins)
no. of clips played simultaneously (i.e. disk load)

Other factors:
Too much MIDI sent from controllers can choke Live/OS/drivers/interface
Stability of the AC supply
HEAT!!!!
HUMIDITY!!!!
VIBRATION!!!
Out-of-it punter (stage invasion)
...and a little thing called operator error

THAT SAID, I have been using Live on 2 Tibook 500Mhz (see specs in sig.) for the last year, 60 shows all over the world. We had one lockup of one machine, once.

The thing to do is get your set as you want it for gigging and then torture-test it to destruction: find out the limits of the no. of clips you can play simultaneously, the maximum no. of plugins etc. If you are using a MIDI controller, play stupid amounts of keys/knobs and try to make it crash.

Once you have your system stable, LEAVE IT!!!! No OS updates, RAM expansions, software installs just prior to the gig - you'd be amazed how many people I've seen get bitten by this!

TIPS:

Render as many CPU-hungry FX as you can into audio, especially reverbs.
Make submixes of multiple tracks into one track where possible.
Remove un-needed VST's and VSTi's from your VST folder for gigging.(just have a second, minimal VST folder for gigging)
Try to keep your CPU load in the 60 - 70% range if possible

Take for granted that your computer WILL crash sometime, they just do, get used to it, and have some kind of emergency plan to get you thru while you re-boot. A CD/MD/vinyl/iPod/cassette/anything cued up. Since we use 2 powerbooks on stage we have each powerbook with a muted track always playing a roughmix of what the other computer is doing. If one machine goes down we can un-mute this track and "fly on one engine" while re-booting the other powerbook with a minimum of grief.

But yeah, I've got a system that is torture-tested, road tested and as stable as I think I can make it. Everyone's mileage will vary, of course, but for me the answer is Live is INCREDIBLY stable.

PS You can see from my sig. that I am still using OS9 and Live 4.02... Why? because they work for everything I want to do on stage and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

hope this helps
p

djastroboy · Post by **djastroboy** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:13 am

Dedicate a laptop to music and keep it as stable as possible. No email, no web, no games, no untested demos.

robin · Post by **robin** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:49 am

djastroboy wrote:Dedicate a laptop to music and keep it as stable as possible. No email, no web, no games, no untested demos.

i'd agree with that for PC. i'm not sure it's the case for macosx (my powerbook does everything).

before this turns into the usual mac vs. pc thread tho i've run both platforms with live (whilts the machines have been general purpose) and had no reliability trubs. i've run macosx a lot longer tho.

the only time i get a crash is if i have a contoller and sound card plugged in via usb and have live running and shut the lid of my powerbook to send it to sleep.

when i power up it'll crash live then.

if i leave it all plugged in but quit live first then no probs...be interesting to see if anyone else has this problem.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:54 am

its just as possible to write a bad application in unix as it is in windows, if you have something running in the background in OSX (EG: 'daves super speed up application!!')with a big memory hole in it ... you goin down.
Its just easier to write bad applications in Win thats all

robin · Post by **robin** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:59 am

Angstrom wrote:its just as possible to write a bad application in unix as it is in windows, if you have something running in the background in OSX (EG: 'daves super speed up application!!')with a big memory hole in it ... you goin down.
Its just easier to write bad applications in Win thats all

yep and yep

when i run live i make sure it's the only thing running (well in terms of real apps, there's allsorts of small things going on in the background)

i try and be platform agnostic really, but there is a reason i accept slow hardware in a trade for an OS i get along with.

spiderprod · Post by **spiderprod** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:08 pm

i never crashed live on stage , actualy i did once but it was because the sound ingeneer unpluged the system by mistake .
i use reaktor in live & the cpu can go up to 80% sometimes but never crashed ,when the cpu overload & audio start glitching i take out one or 2 fx ,that s it .
i ve heard that the vibration of the sound system can give you problems but i ve always used dampers under the flightcase to prevent it .

the most important is to keep the music pc out of the internet & use only legal softs .

teejay · Post by **teejay** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:37 pm

Great.. so any tutorials on settin up your machine ideally for Live ?

i know musicxp.net

Any others?

Robert Henke · Post by **Robert Henke** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:45 pm

Two cents from Ableton:

1. We try to test Live as hard as possible to assure it will run stable, but it is almost impossible to keep it 100% perfect. Getting rid of crash bugs have the highest priority in our development department and every time we discover one which slipped thru, we fix it immideately and if we find it severe we release a bugfix update. This means, we highly recommend having a look at the latest updates, espeically if you experience a problem. It might be solved in a newer version !

Also, if you experience a serious bug, try to reproduce it and if you can, let us know. Almost every bug which can be reproduced with a few steps is simple to fix for us, we just have to know about it.

If you experience a problem, I suggest to check if it persists without any VST plugs or rewire applications. Keep in mind, if a VST within a host behaves bad, the host will crash and not just the VST, same goes sometimes for rewire apps.

And another very general and very true statement: Make backups of your work before you go on tour and carry that backup with you as well as leave it at home.
Your computer might get stolen, someone might think it`s funny to empty a bottle of beer over it etc. All kind of shit happens sometimes and if the only thing you have to do to in order to do your next gig is getting a new computer, install the Live demo and put your backup DVD/CD/ipod/memorystick in it. you are a lucky person...

Best, Robert

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:06 pm

I run Live 4.1.2 on a Sager 5690 (3.2ghz P4, 1gb ram, two 7200 rpm hard drives). My soundcard is an RME Cardbus + Multiface.

On this setup, Live has never crashed on me, and I've used it as of version 3.

However, several issues to note:
1. Due to the PCMCIA bus, every once in a while, I'll get an audio stutter, like when Live tries to enable a plugin (especially true when it's a non-Live plug). Of course, this is the case with VST instruments.
2. Sometimes, with switching from one large set of tracks to another in the arrange window, I'll get that same audio stutter. It's for less than half a second...as if Live is trying to stream the files off the disk or something.

Now, I know this is a PCMCIA bus issue because Live doesn't have this problem when using the stock laptop soundcard, and other appz sometimes do this too. I also know that the RME is a rock solid card, so that's not the issue. So it's not a Live thing.

The main point of my post is to say that aside from those minor issues, Live has NEVER given me any issues in a live situation. Once I identified the issues, I bumped up Live's priority to AboveNormal (I set up a .bat file to always launch Live in AboveNormal mode) and I also put a higher priorities on my RME drivers. I also rendered files with problemmatic track counts or plugins that caused the stutter, so now I can't remmeber the last time I had a stutter...possibly when I was producing and had a song with 40+ tracks at once.

So the bottom line, with some stress test, and knowing your instrument (Live is an instrument in every sense), I think it's as bulletproof as any other piece of hardware. Anything can crash - yes, I've had analog keyboards go bad during performance. But I'd put my money on Live any day.

Keep in mind that the advice on this post is invaluable - don't use newly installed stuff on stage unless you've tested it thoroughly. Streamline your computer to not run any processes other than music-related. So don't let Norton Antivirus run an automated scan on Friday night at 11pm. Strange how such a setting, while perfect for an office, might be disastrous for a DJ or performing artist.

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:18 pm

nebulae wrote:
... I bumped up Live's priority to AboveNormal (I set up a .bat file to always launch Live in AboveNormal mode) and I also put a higher priorities on my RME drivers.

Since you mention it, I have a stupid question... but I only have been a PC dude for less than a year, having dumped my Mac;

How do you set program / process priority in Windows XP?

Any help appreciated...

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:30 pm

montrealbreaks wrote:
nebulae wrote:
... I bumped up Live's priority to AboveNormal (I set up a .bat file to always launch Live in AboveNormal mode) and I also put a higher priorities on my RME drivers.
Since you mention it, I have a stupid question... but I only have been a PC dude for less than a year, having dumped my Mac;

How do you set program / process priority in Windows XP?

Any help appreciated...

The easiest way to do it in Windows XP is to right-click on the taskbar and choose Task Manager. When you get the Task Manager, click on the Processes tab at the top. Locate the process Live.exe (it might be different based on version number). Right click on it and choose Set Priority, and then whatever priority you want.

A couple of important notes: If you dick around with this, know what you're doing! Setting it to Highest Priority can render all other functions unusable, like your mouse, or your display, when the CPU is high. So this isn't the most recommended course of action, but it works well for me.

Also, you can set up a .bat file, which is basically a script that runs the program in higher priority mode. Check out http://www.microsoft.com/resources/docu ... start.mspx to get the syntax for creating .bat files. This can get complicated, so feel free to email me for additional advice. producer909_at_yahoo_dot_com.

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:36 pm

interesting nebulae... Thanks, but I don't think I'll change anything... you scared me off!

I get pretty damn good results with my new computer, I don't need to go frickin with things just to squeeze out more performance that I'm not really in need of.

Just curious though.