LIVE FIVE PERFORMANCE TEST - results here

tumult · Post by **tumult** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:10 am

Actually if it were really just 32, I think it would be 1.45ms overall (buffer size / sample rate * 1000) But you're right, there's obviously extra buffer being tacked on. I never stopped to notice this, because I've been using FireWire audio for so long (my last PCI card was an Echo MIA). But you're wrong about FireWire not using DMA and not being suited for audio use, because it does indeed use DMA and is ideal for audio. USB is packet based and is therefore not as "good" for audio, but the manufacturers deal with it reasonably well

edit: though I must say, since FireWire almost always sits on a PCI bus which bridges to the motherboard, it's obviously not as good as going directly to PCI. But you have to make tradeoffs for portability, and I think the slight sample overhead is worth it for not having to crack open my case and for being able to plug it into a laptop.

veggieryan · Post by **veggieryan** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:31 am

we are getting off topic.
but pcmcia (cardbus) is pci.. and that plugs into a laptop like firewire. the emu 1616m is an excellent and portable unit with the same convertors as the protools hd192...sounds amazing.. and the card works without the breakout box for ultimate portability.... the rme cardbus offers the multiface, multiface 2, and digiface. obviously the pro standard. my mona cardbus has 4 mic pres or guitar line ins and works like a dream. they have a layla cardbus too.
so you can have your cake and eat it too.
and firewire does not have direct memory access or DMA like pci. that is a fact.
you probably can't feel the extra latency. but my professional guitarist friend definately can and he hates his motu for that reason. he has to have 64 samples maximum to feel "in the pocket"... i personally can't keep in time with the drums when playing guitar through a firewire device. its definately noticable.
for pianist its no biggie.. a real piano has 25ms of mechanical latency.. but guitars and drums are different... we are used to hearing the sound the instant we touch the string or hit the drum... so yes.. every bit counts...
furthermore.. firewire's timing is not as accurate and adds cpu overhead.. and therefore will never be as accurate under a load.. in ableton.. when the cpu is maxed out the tempo changes.. so firewire really suffers here. i think this, more than anything else is why guitarists and drummers cant put up with firewire as much...
try out a cardbus unit head to head with firewire and see what I mean.. especially under a heavy cpu load...

Vance · Post by **Vance** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:16 am

OK seems like Vista is producing good results for low latency...

But it also seems like it's producing lower CPU usage results on this performance test, compared to the same machine running XP...

Is anyone in a position to do a comparative test (XP vs. Vista) on CPU efficiency for the Live 5 Performance Test, on the exact same machine?

Because dual core, Live 6 and Vista might just kick some major ass...

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:53 pm

i remember reading an article in which they supposedly did a study and found that on average, people were tracking BETTER with about 10ms monitoring latency (?)

veggieryan · Post by **veggieryan** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:32 am

I am sure you must be mistaken.
Any good gutarist will feel 6ms TOTAL latency.

hmmm...
ryan.

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:47 pm

well, i certainly won't be able to find the article, so it doesn't matter anyway.

edit: actually here it is, ph34r my g00g13 sk1llZ0r

http://www.whirlwindusa.com/wwlatart.html

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:55 pm

specifically I was remembering this line:

" In fact, latencies in the 10 ms to 20 ms range actually have a stabilizing affect on tempo and are thought to be preferred over zero latency."

whether or not that's actually true, I can't say

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:40 pm

Really interesting findings mate!
Thanks for sharing.

As for the firewire/pci stuff, i agree with you, but under a lot of circumstancies firewire is just more convenient. Some laptops don't even have PCMCIA (macbooks for instance), PCMCIA is on the way out (ExpressCard taking over), and it's easier to share the card with your desktop if you have one i guess...(ok, you could always install a PCMCIA->PCI adapter).

I for one would prefer buying a firewire solution than being tied to PCMCIA.

eddu · Post by **eddu** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:08 pm

Hi,

I am a drummer. I notice very low latencies. I usually play my electronic drumkit at 64 samples. More than this is annoying, specially when doing fast drumfills with double strokes etc. It is a difference. I thought about buying FF400 but after some tests i decided not to move on and keep working with my multiface.

Veggieryan, i am beginning to be very excited about core2dual. It would be very helpful if you could do the test...is it possible? Thanks.

veggieryan · Post by **veggieryan** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:06 am

eddu.. thanks for chiming in...
the reason I keep ranting and raving about firewire is that it just isnt good enough.. as you experience 64 samples is the MAX for drummers..
firewire can go lower than 112 samples... plus it has greater cpu overhead at that latency than pci at 64 sampes... giving poorer timing and more pops and clicks.
People, listen up.. we are trying to save you the headaches that we have gone through with these crappy firewire interfaces. My good friend and I were recently trying to lay down guitar tracks.. he got so fed up with his motu ultralite he wanted to throw it out the window. he could not stay in the pocket without direct monitoring on. this means we could not use guitar rig.. lame!
Firewire is not for audio. sorry, its just not. if you are on a macbook you need the new express card to pcmcia adapters that are about to hit the market.
Cardbus is where its at. period.
Eddu: I too am waiting for the core2duo.. as soon as I have the cash I will be making the jump.. the performance with vista will be spectacular.. imagine doing your entire mixdown with all mastering plugs and convolution reverbs at 64 samples while surfing the net, checking email and whipping out some art in photoshop... huzzah.
vista rc1 is available for public download at:
http://download.windowsvista.com/previe ... wnload.htm
but hurry.. it won't be there forever...[/url]

FaX-01 · Post by **FaX-01** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:02 am

longjohns wrote:doesn't matter anyway.

edit: actually here it is, ph34r my g00g13 sk1llZ0r

OMGWTFBBQ Longjohns D4TZ KEWL L337 SP34K

eddu · Post by **eddu** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:56 am

veggieryan: regarding Vista..can i use all my plugins and soft using the 32b version? will i notice the improve in performance with the 32bit version as well or only using the 64?

veggieryan · Post by **veggieryan** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:42 pm

eddu: I am on 32bit version. ALL plugs and software works perfectly. You WILL see a performance increase. it only takes about 20-30 minutes to install.. have a go at it.. ready my latest posts here
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 109#329109
to disable UAC and executive bit protection... also be sure to use the old video drivers that came with your machine.. not the ones from windows update.

be sure to let us know how your rme cardbus does... how is performance at 32 samples.. how is the live 5 performance test doing.. etc...

eddu · Post by **eddu** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:56 pm

Mmm..i am a bit scared about having another OS in my computer now. I have 2 different XPs and no free hard disk partition to put Vista into. As i have some serious unfinished work there i am hesitating about doing weird things to my computer, like installing a beta OS. I think you can understand me..too much time playing with PCs..heh

BTW..how do you get 32 samples in Vista? AFAIK the minimun you can choose is 64. Maybe you have the new beta HDSP drivers? Please let me know

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:02 pm

folks, this is a thread for test results ONLY.

please start new threads for other topics.

thanks!

LIVE FIVE PERFORMANCE TEST - results here

hmm...

hmmm...

yes...