[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

M. Bréqs · Post by **M. Bréqs** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:07 pm

...I would like to add that I am not Jewish. Not by faith, nor by race.

I've just got a History degree, and started (but never finished) my MA studying the Post-Colonial development of nationalist movements.

forge · Post by **forge** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:19 pm

pointless edit

M. Bréqs · Post by **M. Bréqs** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:32 pm

forge wrote:I've been trying not to get in this debate - I know nothing about the history or politics of the region really - but I think it's almost irrelevant

I think the reason this is disgusting is because Israel are acting like bullies and bombing the crap out of innocents over 2 soldiers

Isnt Mossad supposed to be the best secret service in the world?

then why kill so many innocent people? Why not send in Mossad to be a bit more discreet?

They're bombing the crap out of innocents because the racist, genocidal maniacs who launched 1000+ rockets at them for over 6 years are cowardly hiding behind those innocents.

Every drop of innocent blood is on Hizbollah's and Hamas' hands on this one.

This is about more than 2 or 3 soldiers. It's about crippling the capacity of Hizbollah and Hamas to continue terror attacks / rocket bombardment. Peaceful overtures have failed - what other option do they have?

Imagine if Israel didn't react the way the did. The cross-border raids would be celebrated as great victories, emboldening Hamas and Hizbollah (and other Islamofascists and Jihadists) to step up their operations.

Israel's overwhelming military response was necessary for two reasons;

1. To deter future kidnappings / murders / terrorism (diminish enemy intent)
2. To cripple the Hamas bomb factories / Hizbollah rockets (diminish enemy capability)

glu · Post by **glu** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:33 pm

noisetonepause wrote:
glu wrote:"Judgement of God" (Hezbollah)
Hizb means 'party', as in political party. Hizbu Allahi thus means 'God's party' or 'Party of God'.

-Paws

That's what I get for listening to my Egyptian friend, apparently his arabic is a little different. There are other words and phrases that are different in Egyptian arabic. CNN only translated "Party of God", with no political context tagged to it... which could have been pretty vague for some readers. Still pretty ironic..

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:37 pm

forge wrote:I've been trying not to get in this debate - I know nothing about the history or politics of the region really - but I think it's almost irrelevant

No offense Forge, i respect you immensely, but that's really the crux of the problem. History and politics aren't irrelevant. Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it. It's not as simple as one side being a bully and the other side isn't. Middle east poilitics, society is a completely different animal. The Arab nations use the Palestinian problem as a source of fodder to burn for the masses. They control their own masses through that. If the arab nations really gave a shit about the Palestinians they would have repopulated them. There are over a dozen arab nations and no one was willing to take them in? The size of Israel is less than Rhode Island, bought for and paid.

The Arab nations collectively use the palestian refugees are a bargaining chip for everything. The make it out to be a David and Goliath type thing, but that's bullshit. Israeli's don't look at it like they're picking on the palestinians... in their society it's reversed. They're the ones getting picked on by their surrounding neighbors. The arab nations leave the palestinians there to rot as a thorn in the side of the Israeli nation so that it festers. They do it purposefully. The palestinians own government are morally corrupt and have been stealing money donated to them from international organization.

forge wrote:Why not send in Mossad to be a bit more discreet?

Mossad agents aren't a dime a dozen. It takes a long time to cultivate that type of discretion, and it's not completely a viable solution. The mossad are being actively used... but what do you expect them to do? It's not like James Bond here. They're not going to infiltrate a Hezbollah camp, blow up the rockets and save the day. It doesn't work that way.

Silverfish · Post by **Silverfish** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:53 pm

I would like to take a moment to congratulate you gentlemen (and ocassional lady) on a thread that, thus far, has probably been more educational and productive than most OTs. It's nice to see passionate individuals discussion their beliefs, not cramming them up other people's asses.

Probably just the calm before the storm.... This fall on CNN: WWIII
"Get that oil!"

Stop killing.

forge · Post by **forge** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:04 am

he he...funny both of you got in on that before I then edited if for exactly those reasons - especially because I realised my mossad comment was based on some very vague notion and no actual knowledge

TBH, despite my emotional knee jerk to MBreqs' comments last night, after reading one or 2 of his posts this morning I realised he seems to know alot more about it that I do

My take is usually on the side of the underdog - the one who is abused and seemingly cant fight back, but for me to take a stance when i know fuck all about it is not very smart really - my assumption of who is the underdog seems a little misguided if I think the people from the hezbollah side of the fence might be deliberately launching from hospitals and schools - but I definitely dont hold out any hope the Israel is really trying that hard to avoid casualties, I've heard too many things about Israelis - from my old Israeli boss for one

and I also empathise with the david and goliath proportions

these situations are never simple

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:37 am

glu wrote:
noisetonepause wrote:
glu wrote:"Judgement of God" (Hezbollah)
Hizb means 'party', as in political party. Hizbu Allahi thus means 'God's party' or 'Party of God'.

-Paws
That's what I get for listening to my Egyptian friend, apparently his arabic is a little different. There are other words and phrases that are different in Egyptian arabic. CNN only translated "Party of God", with no political context tagged to it... which could have been pretty vague for some readers. Still pretty ironic..

It could have a different meaning in Gyptian, I don't know any Arab dialects (just some Classical) and I've never seen that translation (Judgement of God). I'm a second year student of Arabic language & culture and it one of the few Arabic phrases and names that seems to get translated in a relatively consistent manner.

I looked it (Hizb) up just to be sure and Hans Wehr says group, troop, band, gang; party (pol). Other derivatives of the same root have meanings like partisanship, factionalism, biased and... 'old hag' (haizabun) - not *quite* sure what that's about!

Breqs - I really wish you'd stop using the term 'islamofascist'. It lowers your credibility to below the freezing point. I don't want to start yet another debate with you about Islam, but all it does is make you look incredibly biased.

-Paws

jonathono2000 · Post by **jonathono2000** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:44 am

Hezbollah is to Lebanon as Al Queda is to Afghanistan.

These governments allow free agent quasi-miltitary groups to stockpile weapons, preach hateful propoganda, and participate in covert operations.

These governments allow the members of these extremist factions to participate in their legitimate government, create sub-governments based on radical religious ideals and, operate as a facist movement within a para-democratic country.

But then when these sub-governments grow beyond the bounds physically, militarily, or idealogically of their host government and create a disturbance to relative peace, start wars, perform acts of terrorism the legitimate governments claims that these people are acting within their jurisdiction upon their own volition.

Its the new tactic for governments that want to sponsor terrorsim and outright jihad under the surface but on top appear as if though they themsleves are somehow a victim of these orginizations they have given privelege to.

........................................................................................................

I am going to start a militia in the US, I am going to enlist members of the government, publicly build a cache of weapons, speak anti-communist rhetoric, and independently attack Cuba.

When one looks at it like this it puts some perspective on the situation.

To me Hezbollah is Lebanon, Lebanon is Hezbollah is Syria is Iran is Al Queda is the Taliban.

A footnote for Israelis - You have the greatest military power in the history of the world on your side, fret not. We shall be victorious.

M. Bréqs · Post by **M. Bréqs** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:52 am

noisetonepause wrote:
Breqs - I really wish you'd stop using the term 'islamofascist'. It lowers your credibility to below the freezing point. I don't want to start yet another debate with you about Islam, but all it does is make you look incredibly biased.

-Paws

...Point taken. I use Jihadist and Islamofascist to differentiate "those guys" from muslims as a whole. I consider Jihadist as somebody who wants to fight and kill the infidel, and Islamofascist as a muslim who wants to impose sharia law (and therefore Dhimmi status) on the infidel.

But I agree, without defining that term, it can come off as very biased. I'll stop using it.

How would you describe Fundamentalist Islamic people with a view of subjugating non-muslims through violence then? Is there a convenient word for it?

glu · Post by **glu** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:57 am

noisetonepause wrote:
glu wrote:
noisetonepause wrote: Hizb means 'party', as in political party. Hizbu Allahi thus means 'God's party' or 'Party of God'.

-Paws
That's what I get for listening to my Egyptian friend, apparently his arabic is a little different. There are other words and phrases that are different in Egyptian arabic. CNN only translated "Party of God", with no political context tagged to it... which could have been pretty vague for some readers. Still pretty ironic..
It could have a different meaning in Gyptian, I don't know any Arab dialects (just some Classical) and I've never seen that translation (Judgement of God). I'm a second year student of Arabic language & culture and it one of the few Arabic phrases and names that seems to get translated in a relatively consistent manner.

I looked it (Hizb) up just to be sure and Hans Wehr says group, troop, band, gang; party (pol). Other derivatives of the same root have meanings like partisanship, factionalism, biased and... 'old hag' (haizabun) - not *quite* sure what that's about!

Breqs - I really wish you'd stop using the term 'islamofascist'. It lowers your credibility to below the freezing point. I don't want to start yet another debate with you about Islam, but all it does is make you look incredibly biased.

-Paws

Paws can you confirm that "al Jazeera"means "the sea" and Algeria or as the brits called Alger is a variation of the word "sea"?

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:01 am

jonathono2000 wrote:Hezbollah is to Lebanon as Al Queda is to Afghanistan.

No.

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:15 am

M. Bréqs wrote:
noisetonepause wrote:
Breqs - I really wish you'd stop using the term 'islamofascist'. It lowers your credibility to below the freezing point. I don't want to start yet another debate with you about Islam, but all it does is make you look incredibly biased.

-Paws
...Point taken. I use Jihadist and Islamofascist to differentiate "those guys" from muslims as a whole. I consider Jihadist as somebody who wants to fight and kill the infidel, and Islamofascist as a muslim who wants to impose sharia law (and therefore Dhimmi status) on the infidel.

But I agree, without defining that term, it can come off as very biased. I'll stop using it.

How would you describe Fundamentalist Islamic people with a view of subjugating non-muslims through violence then? Is there a convenient word for it?

Hehe. Don't think so, no... Jihadist is a bit difficult as well, really, because as you probably know it carries other, peaceful connotations as well as the one common definition used in Western media... and then there's the fact that Arafat used it on certain occasions too, and he was hardly a militant muslim (militant, yeah, muslim, probably, militant muslim, no).

I'm not sure Hizbullah want to subjugate dhimmis either (a dhimmi being a tolerated, taxed religious minority in a muslim country); they just want "the oppressors" (ie. the zionists) out of "their land" (ie. Israel/Palestine) to begin with... And maybe to be reunited with Syria, although I've never studied their programme in great detail... They've changed a lot since they started, AFAIK, and more than just being a party and a militia they now run hospitals, orphanages, schools, etc., in parts of Lebanon. You have to take that into account as well when you consider their public support, BTW>

To be honest, I'd probably just use the names of parties/organisations... Al-Qa'ida, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood(s), FIS, Hizbullah, etc. are very different beasts if not on the surface, then at least in the details.

Hamas party programme would be comedy if it wasn't for, well, the fact that it's not really funny. It has all these references to mason conspiracies and other very far out shit...

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:21 am

glu wrote:Paws can you confirm that "al Jazeera"means "the sea" and Algeria or as the brits called Alger is a variation of the word "sea"?

Al-Jazeera, the TV-station, is as far as I can remember named after a region somewhere in Jordan or Syria; it's not the same word as al-Jaza'ir (literally, 'island', I think), which is the root of Algeria.. They share a grammatical root, though, but they're different words.

rapidix · Post by **rapidix** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:39 am

going back to the old "Israel is great because they withdrew" bullshit..

the Gaza pullout seems obvious now, doesn't it?? Israel knew shit was going to continue and so they got all their settlers out of the area. So if Palestine reacted in any way, they can blow up whichever buildings they want and not worry about any settlers being hit.

They weren't being nice and saying "yes, we're letting Palestine be free." They made enclosed camps of the people so they may attack at will without losing casualties from their side.

Simple logic really: consolidate and eradicate. Their motives were tactical not beneficial.